A few days ago, I wrote a post around the question, “Why do bad things happen to good people?” My answer was that things – the events or situations in our lives – actually aren’t bad or good; bad and good are arbitrary, subjective judgments. Even the worst of the worst can be seen from an angle that could paint it as good.
Michael, a blog buddy/commentator, mentioned Matthew Shepard. His comment was: “How would you explain Matthew Shepard’s murder?” The brutal hate crime of Matthew Shepard certainly falls into the “worst of the worst” category.
But even something so dark as a hateful murder can be seen from a different persepetive.
Matthew Shepard was murder in 1998 in Laramie, Wyoming because he was gay. It was an incredibly painful and tragic moment – and a pain that likely still lingers in many of our hearts, and especially in the hearts of his family and friends.
But since his murder, a foundation was created in his name to “support diversity programs in education and to help youth organizations establish environments where young people can feel safe and be themselves.” In addition, the Matthew Shepard Act is working its way through Congress. The Act would would “expand the 1969 United States federal hate-crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim’s actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability.”
Is it possible, then, that sometimes we must go through the darkness to get to the light? Is it possible that Matthew Shepard’s murder may prevent 1,000s of future hate crimes? Perhaps we wouldn’t be where we are today without his murder?
If someone from the distant future were to look back on human history, they’ll certainly recognize the tragedy of his murder – but they’ll also likely see the progress and love that it inspired.
July 31, 2009 at 5:49 pm
I don’t quite agree that blood should be split to effect change. Unfortunately though, this is a fact of life and you are right. One mans death could save others. People who were closer to the young man will have a different perspective than all of us who only really know what the media have told us.
August 1, 2009 at 7:34 am
I agree with you that blood should not be spilt to effect change. I also agree that through this evil situation others COULD be saved.
The question of bad things happening to good people is a very relevant question here. What is good and what is bad first have to be understood though.
“Good” is something of moral excellence, quality or virtue.
“Bad” is something that is not good. That is wicked.
Both “good” and “bad” are speaking of morality and of intent.
Somethings that happen to us are neither good nor bad. They just are situations that could happen to everyone and there is no intent that caused it. An earthquake that kills hundreds, a tsunami that washes away lives, a tornado or hurricane that causes immense destruction are all natural occurrences that happen with no intent. They are neither good nor bad, just difficult and sometime devastating situations. They happen to people, animals and nature. Whether the person has done commendable acts, is complete innocent or someone who has done hateful, selfish things it doesn’t matter.
On the other hand there are things that are good or bad because the situation was comited by person that made a conscious, moral decision to commit the act.
Matthew Shepard’s murder was an immoral act that did not have to happen. It happened because two people were intent on causing harm to Matthew. It was not just a situation that happened. It was caused by a conscious decision to inflict pain, humiliation and death on another human being.
There are many other example throughout human history where people make conscious, immoral, destructive decisions to others in the name of politics, religion, monetary gain or perceived injury or disrespect. You just have to think of any situation of ethnic cleansing, religious wars, terrorist attacks, holocausts to know that it was not a “natural” occurrence that initiated the pain and suffering in these situations. It was people. People with wills.
Yes, good can come from even these situations but it takes another conscious decision to bring about good where there was bad. Some situations cannot be changed. Matthew Shepard can not be brought back to life. Neither can the millions killed in concentration camps, but these situations can cause other people to say, “Never again!” and have laws changed, create foundations to foster understanding, help marginalize peoples, help heal the suffering. But it does take a conscious, moral decision to do something about it.
Yes, there is good and bad situations. They come from human sources. And yes, there are situations that just are. They are neither good nor bad but can also cause pain and destruction. These situations just are. There is no intent for harm they are just natural occurrences. How you respond to each of these need to different.
August 1, 2009 at 2:40 pm
“Good” is something of moral excellence, quality or virtue.
“Bad” is something that is not good. That is wicked.
Both “good” and “bad” are speaking of morality and of intent.
Your definitions of good and evil rely completely on moral absolutes. Something that may be morally excellent to me may be morally reprehensible to you.
You say that Matthew Sheppard’s murder was immoral. I agree and I imagine so does the vast majority of people. However some people firmly believe that God, Allah, or whomever, has commanded that homosexuals should be put to death. For them, homosexuality is immoral and putting us out of our misery is the moral thing to do.
In this model of thinking, everyone believes that he or she is right. Everyone believes that his or her morality is the correct one. But multiple moralities exist and compete to be right. This model of thinking doesn’t work. We still have wars and bloodshed because everyone feels he or she is right at the expense of all other philosophies.
Consider that nothing is good or evil. Nothing is absolutely moral or immoral. The only truth in the situation is whether or not I believe in, like, enjoy or agree with something. I disagree with killing a person for any reason from the time of conception until the time of natural death. And I do not consider myself to be so absolutely right that I cannot allow other people to hold different values and beliefs. Whether I like what other people do or not, I would rather be a role model for harmony and understanding than a role model of the imposition of my own beliefs on anyone else.
August 1, 2009 at 7:13 pm
“You say that Matthew Sheppard’s murder was immoral. I agree and I imagine so does the vast majority of people. ”
“Consider that nothing is good or evil. Nothing is absolutely moral or immoral. The only truth in the situation is whether or not I believe in, like, enjoy or agree with something. ”
You contradict yourself when you say that nothing is absolutely moral or immoral but you agree that Matthew Shepard’s murder was immoral.
I never stated that morality had anything to do with a personal belief in a God or Gods.
I said that things that come from a human source can be good or bad, whereas situations that come from nature cannot be considered moral because there is no intent in an act of nature.
My definition of “Good” and “Bad” was a dictionary definition not a scriptural definition.
I firmly believe that non-believer’s, non-religious, agnostic and atheist peoples can very much be moral people.
Because people can and do commit acts against one another that are not for the other person’s good and many times initiated to cause harm to the other then I classify those acts as bad or evil. I am not talking in a religious way when I say this.
Destructive weather, earthquakes, landslides, avalanches, lightening strikes can all cause death and destruction to people. They can be devastating but there is no intent by natural occurrences to harm. They have no will. They just happen. The same cannot be said for murder, rape, torture, humiliation and the myriad of destructive acts that humans conceive of and then perpetrate against others, animals and the planet. Human initiated acts of pain and destruction are bad, in my definition.
If you refuse to accept that there are good and bad acts perpetrated by people then there is no basis for positive human interaction unless you are to gain something from it.
I believe that a self-centered, self-focused, selfish approach to life is what causes the majority of ills in the world. If you look closely at worldwide problems, including famine, ethnic cleansing and war it all starts with putting “my” interests above other’s interests. I believe that we can live better.
And by the way I do not believe in an omniscient, omnipresent “God” that is laying down a set of rules for us to live by. I do believe that we all know intrinsically what behaviors and actions are moral and what inalienable rights we all deserve as sentient beings.
If everything is only relative and, as you state, “Nothing is absolutely moral or immoral” then you cannot condemn murder or ask for equal rights because all that would matter is that you are stronger than everyone else and you can impose your will, opinion on others and stop them from objecting. That is the world of dictatorships, and fundamentalist religious or political groups.
I do not believe in imposing beliefs on anyone but I do believe that we all have rights to live our lives and that we all have inalienable rights and freedoms. That in my opinion is good.
(Just so I am not accused of having an “American” point-of-view” because of my belief in inalienable rights, I have to state that I am not American. I am Canadian and I don’t believe that that is any better or worse than any other nationality because I am human first and I share this planet with many other divers forms of life, which also have every right to exist and thrive here.
August 1, 2009 at 10:01 pm
You guys are missing the point.
If you judge things from an absolutist perspective, no philosophy is ever going to be perfect.
Yet, Davey’s point, I think, is that good/bad is a matter of perspective. Always.
A thing as horrible as Mathew Shepard’s murder can certainly be seen as bad, seeing how Matthew suffered, how the guys who perpetrated this murder had been taught such values that led them to the conclusion that it was OK to do it. Yet it can be seen as a good thing if you think of all the change it brought, the conscience it created – worldwide – about hatred, and how the negative behavior that created has been diminished, meaning that other lives have been spared. Seeing it as good, because of its positive consequences, is in no way minimizing the horrible act that took place or seeing it less as a tragedy, or even justifying murder as a tool for change. It’s recognizing the positive contribution that his life, his suffering and his sacrifice brought to the world.
August 1, 2009 at 10:31 pm
Sorry Carlos, I still have to agree with you. Matthew Shepard’s death cannot be seen from neutral point-of-view. It is not a matter of if I see it as bad and you see it as good. His death was wrong. It was bad. It was done from a mindset that was set on causing him harm, humiliation and death. That was bad. What comes after his death can be good, but not necessarily. The good that can come will only come because people were touched by his life and the circumstances of his death and saw it as bad and should never happen again. It will never be right.
Tonight on the news it was reported that an eight-year-old girl in Arizona was raped several times by several men. That is bad. Her parents have disowned their daughter because from their belief system she is defiled. Defective beliefs will only cause greater pain and I, for one, will not stay silent and say that murder or rape or abandoning the weak and vulnerable is neither good nor bad it “only your perspective”.
No! Good can come from the aftermath of Matthew’s death and the little girl’s rape and abandonment, but that will never make the initial act any better. It is only in recognizing the hideous, evil and yes, BAD nature of the act that GOOD people will bring about changes for the good. The good that comes later is separate from the bad that prompted the changes. Anyone that thinks that human acts of violence and harm are neither good nor bad will never be able to bring about positive change.
If things are just a matter of perspective then no matter what happens to you you should just sit still and accept it because there is no difference between murder and a random act of kindness.
August 2, 2009 at 2:11 am
I don’t believe I contradicted myself. My error was in not fully expressing myself. I do agree that Matt’s murder was immoral by my standard of morality. My standard is not absolute nor will it agree with all others.
You said:
If everything is only relative and, as you state, “Nothing is absolutely moral or immoral” then you cannot condemn murder or ask for equal rights because all that would matter is that you are stronger than everyone else and you can impose your will, opinion on others and stop them from objecting. That is the world of dictatorships, and fundamentalist religious or political groups.
Everything is certainly relative. People’s views vary from culture to culture and from person to person on every issue. If you don’t believe in a God then where does your right and wrong come from? It comes from you, your upbringing, your experiences. Everyone’s experience of life varies. Consequently we all have differing senses of morality. The entire concept of good, bad, right and wrong is invented by humans. In some cases it serves us. In other cases it binds us.
Consider that some people fully believe homosexuality is wrong and immoral. Some people believe it is wrong and immoral for a woman to show any skin and for a man to wear gold or silk. Some people believe it is evil to take photographs or make images of living people. Some people think it perfectly acceptable to marry within families or to have multiple spouses and some think that’s wrong. Some people believe that killing people is justified in some cases. The world has people who believe many different things, none of which is right. It’s all opinion.
You are mistaken when you say a relativist cannot condemn murder. Because most people agree that murder is unacceptable we have laws against it. Murder is illegal. That doesn’t make it bad or wrong. It’s just illegal. I’m not going to judge someone for the things they do. That said, as a society we don’t have to accept their behaviour. As the majority we can require them to abide by the law or endure the punishments for not. We are, in a sense, imposing our collective, agreed-upon morality on our entire society.
There are a lot of things that I like and dislike. There are many things I agree with and disagree with. I was, at one point, very absolute in my moral beliefs and I knew I was right about it. I learned that I am one voice in a very large choir and that I do myself a disservice to judge people and their actions based upon my likes and dislikes. I’ve learned to seek understanding, to look for the gifts in everything and to allow others to live their lives as they see fit, trying not to judge them or pigeon-hole them. Otherwise I end up hating a lot of people, resisting what’s so and being angry about everything. Rather than seeking to destroy those things I dislike, I focus my energy on creating and building the things I stand for. It’s much more fulfilling.
August 2, 2009 at 7:59 am
Dave, I know we will never agree. You say that a relativist can condemn murder because “most people agree that murder is unacceptable we have laws against it. Murder is illegal.” You must then, as a relativist, be against ALL law because if there is no “bad” or “wrong” it is just “opinion”.
On what grounds do you believe that “as a society we Don’t have to accept their behaviour”? As a the “majority” “imposing our collective, agreed-upon morality”? Then when the “majority” agrees in a certain society that women should not vote; that homosexuals should be put to death (much less have a right to a job or to marry the person they love) then those laws would be as valid as any other law anywhere. Stop expecting equal rights for minorities because we just need “impose our collective, agreed-upon morality on our entire society”. Horray for the rule of the majority mindset!
I believe that it is NOT the majority opinion and whim that should decide morality.
The basis for morality should be based on a very simple principle very close to the oath that doctors make, “First, do no harm”. If law was based around this simple principle we would not be discussing stupid situations like condemning a person for showing skin or wearing gold, etc. I believe that people should be able to express themselves freely, be who they are so long as they are not harming another. Period.
First do no harm…. then you can say murder in bad, rape is wrong, humiliation is bad. We would need one law: LOVE.
This is my last post on this subject. If you want to say more feel free.
August 1, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Carlos, I meant to say I have to DISAGREE with you. Some things are neutral. Some things are not.
August 1, 2009 at 11:00 pm
I get what you mean. Really, I do. I don’t meant to be callous, nor do I think Davey meant that either. I’m not going to defend everything Davey says, word by word, but rather, I’m standing by the point behind his words.
I don’t think acts are “neutral”, as they affect us differently. But the label we give them conditions our reaction to them, how we feel about them, and ultimately, if we can find purpose/happiness/fulfilment or not.
Everything has its quota of good and bad, in varying degrees. It’s our ability to find the “good” in them that makes us able to overcome the bad.
August 1, 2009 at 11:16 pm
Here is the story of the eight-year-old refugee girl in Arizona who was raped by four boys. I believe that knowing about this can bring about good, but that does not change the fact that what happened to her by the boys and her family and community is bad. Very, very bad.
Rape of 8-year-old girl tears Arizona’s Liberian immigrant community apart
Chris McGreal in Washington
guardian.co.uk, Friday 31 July 2009 14.45 BST
The hundreds of Liberian families who sought refuge in Arizona fled a West African civil war that piled the unthinkable upon the more routine horrors of conflict, many at the hands of children.
In Phoenix the families thought they had put all that behind them but in recent days they, and much of the rest of Arizona’s capital, have grappled with what appears to be a terrible crime apparently made worse by an almost incomprehensible response.
It was bad enough that four boys, one only nine years old, allegedly lured an eight-year-old girl in to a shed with a promise of chewing gum and took turns raping and assaulting her. But what followed has left Phoenix residents and authorities perplexed and angry.
When the police arrived, the girl’s mother told them to take her daughter away and not bring her back because she brought shame on the family by saying she was raped.
“Nothing has happened to my daughter. Nobody has touched my daughter,” said the mother who cannot be named in order to protect the identity of her daughter.
The child’s older sister said she only has herself to blame.
“I said to her: It’s not good for you to be following guys because you’re still little,” she said. “She always bring trouble.”
The girl has been taken in to care.
The police say there is evidence of rape. They allege that the boys held the girl down and took turns to “brutally sexually assault” her for about 15 minutes. The police were called when the girl was found screaming and with her clothes torn.
Four boys who were found running from the scene have been charged with kidnapping and sexual assault. Steven Tuopeh, 14, is being prosecuted as an adult. The others, aged from nine to 13, will be tried in juvenile court.
Now the mother is calling for her daughter’s alleged attackers to be released saying that it is an internal matter within the close-knit refugee community of about 1,200 Liberians who fled their country’s civil wars, notoriously brutal even by African standards, but cannot escape their legacy.
The conflicts were marked by indiscriminate killing, mutilation and rape – and the recruitment of child soldiers who were responsible for all three often while high on drugs or alcohol. Children were also frequently the victims of rape. Many others witnessed killings, sometimes of parents. Before they made it to America some were struggling by in refugee camps.
Lasana Kamara, who helped found a support organisation for Liberian refugees, the Arizona Mandingo Association, said that a culture of violence continues to grip children from the community.
“The families have been traumatised, the children have been traumatised. Sometimes they have seen things. Sometimes their parents were killed. The violence they have seen is part of them. They form gangs according to where they are from in Liberia,” said Kamara, who fled the west African state in 1992 and now works as a detention officer at a local sheriff’s jail.
“That war was total destruction. With all they have seen, then coming here, it’s very difficult. It’s going to take a very long time for the children to really get themselves together. Every month we have meetings and tell the kids don’t do this. But sometimes it’s beyond control.”
Some of the children were too young to have witnessed the conflict first hand, but they are still drawn in to its aftermath, particularly with attitudes toward violence and rape.
Sexual violence in Liberia may have been widespread but it was barely taken seriously. The victims were often made to feel responsible. Rape was outlawed in Liberia only in 2006.
That law was passed by the country’s first female president, Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf, who has sought to remove the stigma by revealing that she was the victim of attempted rape during the war. Johnson-Sirleaf criticised the girl’s family.
“I think that family is wrong. They should help that child who has been traumatised and they should make sure that they work with the US law authorities to see what can be done about the other young boys who have committed this offence,” she said. “Not only should they abide by the law, but they too need serious counselling because clearly they are doing something, something that is no longer acceptable in our society here.”
July 31, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Good and bad is all perception and you’re right. I remember Matthew Shepard all too well. Friends of mine were at school with him and his death not only rocked the community but everyone. I think what happened is horrible, I think what happened was preventable, but because of that event, because of what happened to him SO much has changed. Not only is that community more educated and accepting (one of my friends still lives there and is open about his sexuality and it’s never been an issue), but his life (and death) helped countless people. I look at how different life was for me (in my 30s), from that of my little brother (20s) who came out at 18. It was SO different for him, people were more accepting, his teachers were supportive as were friends. It wasn’t like that before Matthew brought to the foreground the underlying discrimination. He made life better for my little brother, as have countless others. Sometimes change requires a catalyst.
July 31, 2009 at 6:06 pm
To look at this for a point of veiw which i do agree with you that for one person to die that there can be many people saved but this was not the attackers intention they simply destroy somthing they dont understand it is simple human nature to exsplore somthing they dont understand but there are people who dont like the unnown who cant understand why people would do these thing so i like to call them stupid people
July 31, 2009 at 6:08 pm
I think it is better to know that his life wasn’t taken without being noticed and making a change. A lot of people come and go in life and we do not even notice.
It is so sad that he had to leave this life in such a horrible experience but at least it set up the power change and move gay rights into the right direction.
I do not think we can ever look at this death as a good thing. I think he would rather be here with us now then his death making a change. It is just nice to know that one gay guy’s gay bashing did not go unnoticed and helped us all.
I think it is important for us all to pay attention to small and local heroes who face gay bashing in smaller ways but represent the change that is needed.
I think I have gone on enough about this. It just really hurts my heart to know what we face each day while others look away…
July 31, 2009 at 6:13 pm
I’d put it this way, there is always a bright side and a dark side for any givin event. and by mentioning the brutal murder of Mathew Shepard, you Dave pointed out to the positive side of this awful incident. I agree with u here that because of it the life of gays -may be- has become better and he has sent his message to the world. But whatever has happened to the gay world after his murder .. was it worth it ?!!
Ofcourse not cuz atleast to his family and friends there will be no good or gain that could match the loss of a dear beloving.
so since the loss is much bigger thanthe gain .. it is a really bad event and each time I hear it or read about it it just breaks my heart cuz it happened to an innocent human being.
“peace out” :p
July 31, 2009 at 7:23 pm
I agree with all opinions above. it is difficult not to agree with u Davey.
It is always like that in our beautiful world that sth shocking has to happen in order to put a disccusion on certain topic.
I think that thanks to the internet and the “era of information” where connecting with people all around the world is as simple as ie writing this comment we are on a right track to become more and more civil society. Our world is SO DIVERSIFIED that we constantly need to discover differences between ppl, cultures, point of views etc. and UNDERSTAND & ACCEPT these differences – NOT FIGHT THEM.
Unfortunately some tragic things need to happen to put the issue on the spotlight and the example of Mathew is one of them.
But we need to move on and learn from it.
Maybe it sounds very crazy … but I believe that whatever happens is the best thing to happen. And we are not the ones who should judge it.
Greetings from Poland
TheKrzychoo
August 2, 2009 at 10:40 am
Krzychoo-i am Polish by second generation-living in U.S.A.who would have thought that a Woman-Mayor of Warsaw-would permit a gay-pride parade to be allowed-and put the Kacynski Brothers on notice that tolerance should be embraced-life will get better for gays and straights-Zeby Polska bylo Polska.
July 31, 2009 at 7:39 pm
For every Matthew Shepard there are hundreds of other innocent people who are beaten, humiliated, abused, tortured, and murdered; all without the large public outcry that was garnered by Mr. Shepard. A cursory examination of the data surrounding hate crime is a minefield of smoke and mirrors laden with brutal events lacking sufficient support for the motivations of the crime. There is a large initiative in this country devoted to propagating the notion that hate crimes do not exist. Perhaps it has been in light of the Bush administration that the U.S. has swung so far left leaving only the judiciary branch as the lonesome right-leaning piece of the government. But let us not forget all the efforts that have been made over the last 8 years to advance the interest of gay rights, or the rights of many minorities that were upended by conservative interests.
Surely, perspective plays a certain role in whether or not something is seen as bad or good. But I don’t understand what is with this need to convince everyone that nothing bad every really happens.
It seems to me that its possible in many cases to find at lease a bit of bad in most seemingly good things, and that it is possible to find at least a bit of good in most bad things.
Whether it is immediately possible to see something good coming out of something perceivably bad is irrelevant. I think our feelings of loss, or shame, or pain, or guilt are very real feelings. If a loved one of ours dies suddenly with no time to prepare who is young and seemingly with many years to live, we are stopped suddenly. Sure, it gives us the opportunity to be grateful for our health, or an opportunity for fellowship and community; sure we may meet someone new or be the beneficiary of some new offer or fortune as a result, but does that make the hurt go away?
To me they are separate events that are related. I could never say, “Gosh, I’m just so pleased that my mother died because if she didn’t die at that moment, then my brother wouldn’t have been offered that job. And he needed a job!”
All the same, I don’t think Matthew Shepard’s family is saying, “I feel so much peace knowing that he was brutalized before being abandoned to die because now hate laws are more broadened.” I think that in the specific case of Matthew, his family may take some solace in knowing that these initiatives exist now, but that DOES NOT BRING HIM BACK.
And to all the families and friends of all the heinous crimes done to those who belong to gender or sexual identity minorities whose families haven’t been able ignite a firestorm of sympathy or broad awareness–Let them not fall on deaf ears. Their tragedy is ours.
July 31, 2009 at 9:38 pm
If the human race were more mature or evolved, such incidents wouldn’t have to bring about change.
But alas, the human race tries it’s best to prove Darwin was right.
Even with evidence of the obvious.
But for every person who is murdered, tortured, bullied and the target of hate, the human race suffers as a species.
July 31, 2009 at 9:50 pm
The world can be a cold and lonely place. At many times it is just that, very cold and very lonely. It is when we are among those with which we can identify, being open minded and truly accepting of all others, will we be close to understanding about what it is to be human in a world that still has a lot of room to grow. It is that progress that we must make together, gay/straight/bi/lesbian/transgendered/and anything else I may have left out. We must unite to ensure that selfish acts of hate, crimes against humanity, crimes against humans, do not prosper. We must join and celebrate our differences, educate those younger than us to be open minded and to be truly accepting of everyone. We must make progress together to co-exist, to thrive, to ensure our very survival as humans who need, most dire, to live together. A murder, especially of someone so young, is one of the most horrifying things that can take place in this world. There is no good to be found in that specific situation as it carries everything bad, evil, twisted, and inhumane found inside we as humans. The good, the resonating and inherent goodness inside all of us, can be sparked from a “wake up call” such as this. Did it have to come to a senseless murder for we as a people to open our eyes, ears, and hearts to a situation that, when put into perspective, is truly an asinine thing to fight about? No. But it did happen. It did take place and we have to live with the fact that part of the continent did wash away and all of Europe as a whole will forever be affected. Sad? Yes. Tragic? Yes. In need of our attention to educate those who need help in making progress towards co-existing? YES.
My love and wishes for a happier world to everyone. I hope we can make progress together. I hope we can become more open minded and accepting than we have been. I hope…
Ciao!
July 31, 2009 at 11:14 pm
Hopefully you’re right Davey! I think, maybe 50 years from now, we will be able to look back in hindsight and see the fruit that sprung from Matthew Shepherd’s horrible murder. Although, I think we should be careful when we try to be so abstractly subjective about any kind of negative incident. Sometimes things that happen are just wrong and you can’t really find anything good about them, like the Holocaust, yes, it is good that that horrific tragedy helped raise awareness against genocide but just that alone can’t erase the fact that 6,000,000,000 human lives were oblitereated…
But basically, I do hope you’re right, even though we may have to wait for it in awhile in the U.S. I think you’ll ultimately be right. I just wish some of my fellow LGBT individuals here in the U.S. were as optimistic as you were and would stop bashing President Obama. Although I sincerely understand their frustrations, I think that their whining and bitching about him not “moving fast enough” just helps confirm and solidify gay stereotypes.
July 31, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Although I agree that perspective is everything and that we can view events in whatever light we wish I feel that hate crime legislation is a negative outcome of Matthew Sheppard’s saga. Why should someone pay a different price based on the motivation for a crime? Why should the law view me any differently if I murdered someone for his wallet or because he was gay? As I don’t believe any action is intrinsically good nor evil – just an action – I don’t believe that any murder is worse than any other. The result is the same despite the motivation.
August 1, 2009 at 12:06 am
Thanks for this.
It gives me some peace of mind to think that something good came out of all that hatred.
I remember seeing fundamentalist anti-gay protesters yelling profanities at the boy’s funeral. I felt such anger and frustration, especially at all those willfully ignorant people who just gave up on knowledge, understanding and love, and just let themselves be herded into such hateful attitudes.
August 1, 2009 at 6:39 am
Carlos, that group would be part of the Westboro Baptist Church. It is headed by a man named Fred Phelps. I would list the URL for them but it is offensive. I can only wonder at what drives this man and his followers.
August 1, 2009 at 9:22 am
I have been wondering about that time and again.
What is it about homosexuality that these people find so vile?
The Old Testament is much harsher, and explicit, about those who eat shellfish and pork, about those working on the Sabbath (talking about punishments such as death), whereas the new testament is also very explicit about the need to give and how the rich are going to hell (when they work to favor the very rich).
These churches work on manipulation. Their goals are financial-political. They feel the need to sell the idea of spiritual superiority, and in that, they find gayness as a scapegoat. A tool for their brainwashing and for making people willfully ignorant. They preach hours on end about how “God hates fags” (something completely unchristian to mix God and hate in the same phrase) based on two mere sentences (Leviticus and Romans) in order for their people to feel superior to something, or someone. Pretty much like the KKK, the nazis or misogynous groups did and do to justify their actions, using the Bible – something metaphoric and very open to interpretation – as some sort of sacred code of laws, for which they choose which passages are valid and which are not…
There is no religious argument for their homophobia. None. (not even in Islamic religions)
My guess is that their homophobia is further fueled by repressed homosexual desires. It’s harder for people to point at you when you’re the one pointing the finger…
August 1, 2009 at 3:19 pm
The answer to that can be found in the fact that what they are reading are ILLITERATE TRANSLATIONS based upon the best known and most popular translation of all time, commissioned by KING JAMES, who it is said, was himself a homosexual, who was uncomfortable with himself. His subjects who did the translating weren’t happy about him sharing his bed with young men either, so it was written from an entirely HOMOPHOBIC perspective. It’s true, the Bible in the Old Testament, in reality is much harsher for the “sins” of eating pork or shellfish, but then Jesus threw all of those old rules out the window when he said, EVERYTHING MADE BY GOD IS GOOD… Hey! That includes US!
But then, this entire discussion is based upon the rationalization, which began it, that “God allows good things to happen to bad people, and bad things to happen to good people.” So a belief that GOD lets or makes things happen predicates everything, as does an acknowledgment of his deity and existence. Does he “let things happen”, or does he “make things happen”? We’ll never know.
August 1, 2009 at 12:06 am
The changes and progress that you speak of came about because people looked at that event, made the judgement that it was bad, and then did something about it. I don’t understand the reluctance to label something as horrific as murder as a “bad” thing. What about genocide? Torture? What if people looked at the Holocaust and decided that, in the name of being open to the silver lining, decided they were just looking at it from the wrong perspective? You have to be willing to recognize the difference between the darkness and the light in order to decide which one to move towards.
August 1, 2009 at 12:22 am
When will we have a professional NHL hockey player who admits they are gay while actively playing? When will we have a successful rapper who admits they are gay and still sells millions of hip hop albums? There still remains cultural barriers around homosexuality. Most people believe gay men are like Bruno. If I were a pro NHL hockey player I don’t know if I would want to tell my teammates I was gay. Has anyone on this message board ever been in a locker room? It might cause chemistry problems after coming out to all the “boys,” but after a while it would break down major barriers more then a god dam parade!
Some progress has been made but not that much. I think a lot of people just want to make money and that is all that really matters in the end. You can talk the talk but who really walks the walk.
August 1, 2009 at 12:38 am
Thats horrible. No one should be discriminated against because of their sexual orientation. Us gays could discriminate agaisnt strait people, but we dont. We are all different and some people cant accept that. You wouldnt kill someone because their a red head, would you? Being gay isnt a choice, just like your hair color or race.
everyone is different…
August 1, 2009 at 1:04 am
Meh. Disagree completely. 100%.
Let’s start with the fact that if we follow your line of reasoning – there is no “real” bad thing. Anything can be seen to be good. Where’s the catch? The catch is that this is the classic argument for people who performed those acts. Your argument could make a great defence argument for the nasty bastards who killed Matthew.
In other words, Davey, bad things are bad. No need to sugar coat them. One of the great advatnages we have as humans is the ability to tell good from bad. WHy are you so uncomfortable with it.
Why do bad things happen to good people? At the end of the day the reason is “because”.
August 1, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Ah… good to see your post, Shane. I think that the reason people *want* to see a silver lining in every bad act is that there is, prevalent in our society, the notion of a god who has three qualities: omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent. People who accept this premise have had, for 2000 years, the problem of explaining evil acts. If their god knows everything, could prevent bad things, and is a good god, then why do innocent or good people suffer? Hence the notion that there has to be some ultimate redemptive quality to the suffering. Millions of pages of discourse have been written by theologians on this topic.
For me, the situation is much simpler: as an atheist, I don’t have to explain a good god doing bad things to good people: things happen based on a complex set of circumstances, and when those vicious punks in Laramie attacked Matthew Shepard, they didn’t pay attention to, nor did it matter to them, whether he was a good or a bad person. Bad things happen to good people just like coins sometimes falls on heads and sometimes on tail. If you tried to correlate the occurrence of cancer with the morality of its victims, you would probably find no correlation either… unless bad people were more prone to bad habits that happen to increase their chances of developing the disease.
Incidentally, Matthew’s death is one of these events in one’s life that leave an indelible impression. Just as I still remember where I was when I heard that J.F. Kennedy had been shot, I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I heard that Matthew had died in the hospital.
August 1, 2009 at 4:27 am
Now we know that Davey is a consequentialist.
The end justifies the means.
Suddenly, all the goodness in this post vaporised away.
August 1, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Some of the greatest medical technology we have today has resulted from forced experiments on people too weak to protest. Some tremendous scientific breakthroughs came from Nazi scientists experimenting on people of diminished capacities. We reap the benefits of these experiments today because their findings have given us insight into things we never would have known had they not done these terrible things. Just because something came out of a terrible act doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use it for the greater good. I’ll even go a step further and say it would be an insult to the memory of Matt Sheppard if we did not find the good in his death and if we did not celebrate his life. If it were you, wouldn’t you want your senseless death to mean something and have ripple effects on millions? I would.
August 1, 2009 at 8:25 pm
What your post suggests is that Matthew Shepard’s murder was a good thing.
Sure, I admit it brought changes that we enjoy today. It offered the opportunity for other people to make use of it to change the world. But at the end of the day, it is still the life of another human taken away unwillingly and unnaturally.
The events after the murder are good. But the incident itself is bad.
PS: I don’t mind being remembered at all. But as long as I know that my existence on this earth was not one of insignificance and vanity, that as long as my coming have affected the lives of other human beings, regardless the number count, I can say that I lived a simple but good life.
August 2, 2009 at 2:27 am
I’m not suggesting it was a good or a bad thing. It happened. That’s all. He was killed unwillingly. I feel sad about it and I don’t like it. That doesn’t – in my opinion – make the act or the people who commited it bad, wrong or evil. They did something illegal, something I disagree with. That’s all. We have all benefited from this unfortunate incident. That doesn’t justify the act but it certainly gives it meaning.
August 3, 2009 at 12:35 am
“We have all benefited from this unfortunate incident”
The mean is still justifying the ends.
It’ll sound better: People who felt it wrong, took up the gaping opportunity left in the incident to turn things for the better.
If nobody acted out of this unfortunate incident, would you still be quoting today?
His death merely provided the opportunity. It is others who turned it into a positive effect. But still, his death was unacceptable.
I don’t care who benefits or whatever. But saying we benefited from the death of another human being is just morally perversed.
August 2, 2009 at 4:40 pm
unbelievable!
please give the exact exchange rate for human suffering to people benefit. how many life’s must be saved to make a death worth? 100? 10? 2? give me a number.
how many human beings can be tortured in guantanamo for eventually preventing 1 american from being a victim of an terroristic act? how many iraqi can be killed as collateral damage for the control over the oil?
Give me a number!
…
August 1, 2009 at 7:25 am
Thank You for responding to me Davey. Good things do come from tragic events but the events are still tragic.
August 1, 2009 at 7:28 am
I just wish we could learn the lessons without the blood shed.
August 1, 2009 at 7:48 am
Fortunately some people can learn the lessons without the bloodshed. This world would be much, much poorer if there were not some people who had to learn through death and destruction.
August 1, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Before we can give up bloodshed and violent conflict, we have to give up being right and having other people be wrong. We must learn to accept differences of opinion and have it be OK to disagree and coexist rather than to force people to capitulate to our version of what is right and wrong.
August 1, 2009 at 8:47 am
gawd, davey, sometimes i think that you are more wavey than davey. but, in this regard, you were speaking nothing but the truth. with every hate comes love. the killing of matthew shpherd was a slap to the face of hatred and apathy. his mom took the fight to the halls of congress and, by any measure, won.
August 1, 2009 at 9:10 am
It is certainly true that many bad events result subsequently in good. It often takes trauma to propel change. However, the change can be for good or ill just as muchl as the original event. I would point to 9/11 as a trauma that has led to change for the worse. We are a much less free society with all the change in the name of national security, from TSA searches of the content of flyer’s laptops to wiretapping the phone calls of American citizens. So it can go either way.
August 1, 2009 at 10:09 am
Good and Bad helps decide just that, what’s good and bad for me, you and all of us. Its a set of emotiobal references we use to relate to EVERYTHING. The trick is to be able to step into it and step out of it at will and when needed in context. And when its not needed to find other tools to analyse and deal with the contextual situation. Not everything is good or bad, but its possible to view everything as good or bad.
August 1, 2009 at 11:15 am
We are all creators.
We can create art. We can create music, dance, literature, poetry, cures to disease.
We can also create havoc. We can create a mess. We can create discomfort, terror, pain heartbreak.
Because humans try to mold the world to their liking they are creators. Their creation can be good or bad. It can have a moral aspect.
Is it possible that Matthew Shepard’s murder may prevent 1,000s of future hate crimes? That is up to how his murder has affected those that have become aware of his life and the circumstances of his death. If it has touched someone in a positive way and they make a conscious decision to speak out against injustice, bullying or ridicule of any marginalized group or person then good can come of it.
Some people will not be touched or will ignore the stories of pain like this because it is not close enough to their own life or experience. Sometimes because they would prefer to blame the victim. They will not create anything positive out the situation.
Sometimes personal pain and suffering can make you sensitive enough to an issue or situation that thousands of other people have had to endure before you to start to care enough to do something about it. Or it could make you hardened. You can see yourself as a victim and say, “Why me?”
Negative things that are originated by humans like murder, rape, terror, robbery, ridicule are bad and are completely avoidable. They need to be labeled as bad or evil. Laws need to changed. People minds need to be changed. Behaviors need to changed. Victimized need to be protected, comforted and empowered.
Negative things that come from nature like storms, earthquake, disease can be devastating and painful too but they are not bad or evil. Many cannot be avoided. They are just situations. There is no need to curse the sky or land because there was no ill intent. We just need to pick up the pieces, help the injured and rebuild. We need to learn how to avoid these situations or to withstand them.
As beings that can mold our world and create, let’s hope that we create a better future.
August 1, 2009 at 11:50 am
Even if the death of Matthew Shepard changed some things to the better, I think, that nothing is worth the murder of a human being…
Things should change to the better without such tragic things…
(Sorry for my bad english, I’m german…)
August 1, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I was really surprised when I was watching “Kathy Griffin, My Life on The D List” and she was at the LA gay youth center and the kids who lived there had zero clue who Matthew Sheppard was. Pretty sad since his death was such an important part of how hate crime laws came about. We need a NATIONAL HATE CRIME BILL! Matthew’s death was reason for us to demand a National hate crime bill. If we don’t keep our younger generations informed then they don’t have a clue how and why we are fighting for our rights. Same thing goes for The Stonewall Riots and being openly gay before Stonewall.
August 1, 2009 at 2:39 pm
i would like to agree with the point Davey Wavey made but i myself can’t justiffe the lost of a life even if it save many, life is to imprant, there is no upside to the lost of a live, im sorry but i cant see the impartants of hes life being lost, he was unic to this world as we all are and that made he beutiful ,as we all are, he and none of us can ever be replaced so i think no good can come from the loss of a life.
August 1, 2009 at 3:22 pm
I agree with Davey with having good come from Sheppard’s death, however time seems to erase humanity’s past mistakes as a few comments above me someone was talking about how kids from an LA gay youth center didn’t know who Matthew Sheppard was;this kind of proves that where the old saying fits “history has a way of repeating itself” and the cause of this is how most people move on from hate crimes such as Matthew Sheppard’s death, I hope something like this does not happen again but who’s to say it won’t?
lots of love commentators and Davey
August 1, 2009 at 3:29 pm
Davey,
I’m sorry but on this issue you are gravy mistaken. I have heard this point of view from many others before and I believe that it stems from the puritanical social roots of the American psyche, that being good can come from suffering and misery. This could not be further from the truth. I’ve already noticed how many of the other posts have made reference to the Holocaust but, as a Jew myself, I would like to just give a brief illustration of why there is absolutely no “silver lining” to the Holocaust.
Now survivor will ever tell you that the Holocaust has brought about any good. It’s the fact that the survivors have been able to bury their demons and get on with life, that they have affected change in the world. Holocaust awareness is a serendipitous, since for most survivors all they want to do is forget and not necessarily prevent another genocide.
Perhaps most telling of all is what we call the Holocaust in Hebrew, Shoa, which means catastrophe. The Holocaust stands as the bleakest, blackest hour of Jewish history. True we have risen from its ashes to become a great nation again, but that is completely in spite of the Holocaust and not somehow due to it.
We as human beings cannot ever look at the world through cherry colored lenses and believe that all is good and wonderful. Evil does exist in the world and by not accepting that fact, by attempting to assign some type of moral validation to evil, we don’t combat evil but instead help it.
August 2, 2009 at 10:32 am
Max-i agree with your thoughts completely.i visited the Spertus Museum of Judaica a few years back-i spent a few hours reviewing life history-artifacts etc.so so much of this must not happen again.there are those that dont want any change in humankind to ever happen.History -unfortunately-has a means of repeating itself.Magnus Hirschfeld wrote much about gay-sexuality-life in Berlin was evolving-some say maybe too wildly-tolerant and open-then the 1930s and 40s barbaric events started to happen.Can history be repeated?Yes-it can.there are hate websites out there that would like events similar to the Holocaust for a repeat performance.the world wide web-is out there for good and evil-misinformation in all cases leads to a destructive path.I hope i dont see or experience any of this in the remaining years of my life-or for future generations.
August 1, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Even in the most basic form of right before you die you “see the light at the end of the tunnel” you have to go through complete darkness to find the light at the end.
August 1, 2009 at 10:06 pm
…but you get see the light…
August 2, 2009 at 3:55 am
i dont really take death like most do i dont cry i feel sad when im around upset people who are mourning over it. life goes on and the way i see it is with each death the stronger i get and can push through to accomplish what they have not and then eventually make others stronger myself when its my turn
August 2, 2009 at 5:47 am
So what´s the moral the Story?
The excesses of the financial system is good because many ppl looses their homes and now know how to camp?
Cancer is good because it gives you time to think?
Aids is good because you then now better how precious life is?
Hitler was a good thing because now we have … less hate on Jews? (did we?) or because WW2 gave us the power of nuclear fission?
Dr. Mengele (Nazi “medical scientist”) was OK because he took the medicine on a higher level?
Do you think when half Africa is empty because the most of the population died on AIDS -> Yeah, now we have less hunger on the world?
really?
August 2, 2009 at 9:07 am
s**t happens. Your quality of life, and hence, your happiness, depends greatly (perhaps not solely) on how you react to that s**t. All of us have our limitations, and countless terrible things happen to many innocent humans (as well as non-humans) that they have no control over. What little control we do have is how we see things, how we react to the imperfections of this physical world.
At the end of the day, the question that is left is if the glass of water is half empty or half full.
August 2, 2009 at 4:18 pm
hunger, slavery, AIDS, forced prostitution, child molestation …
-> the class is half full? maybe tape it with your iPhone to share it with the world and be proud of yourself?
f**k you, man. guys like you should suffer that thinks to get in touch. (and hey, i only think you should have the honour to heal the world with be a victim! mother f****r)
August 2, 2009 at 4:19 pm
and yes, there are borders for tolerance!
August 2, 2009 at 6:45 pm
…What do you think those people under those conditions tell themselves day to day?
I don’t think anyone here has suffered any of the hardships you just mentioned, so it’s pointless to ask for a first-person perspective here, yet many who have escaped or outlived harsh conditions could do so because they had hope; and they have been key in helping to stop it (forced prostitution, organized slavery, etc.).
I don’t claim to have all the answers, I really don’t. But having a positive outlook on things, any sort of things, helps us survive, and keeps us from falling into despair, for all is lost for us when we do.
(BTW, I don’t own an i-phone, I didn’t understand what you meant by healing the world as a victim, and your insults speak poorly of your character).
August 2, 2009 at 8:25 am
most certainly the Matthew Sheppard murder and positive effective change and attitudes have been made.and you see that change all around you.time heals-life is evolving-even in rural Wyoming.still some bad things have occured.news late saturday-and reported this morning-of masked gunman opening fire in Tel-Aviv-Israel-Gay/Lesbian Youth Centre.2-3 youth have died-14 injured-some seriously-is proof positive that bad things happen to good people.ive participated in many Matthew Sheppard Marches-its now over 10yrs marching.yes-attitudes and life are evolving.unfortunately this horrendous brutal crime in Israel proves we must push on-those affected could have been one of us.May they rest in peace-say a prayer for those.they paid a sacrifice-so we can all press on.may the elusive criminal be found-and brought to justice.
August 2, 2009 at 1:54 pm
How exactly did Matthew Shepherd’s brutal murder benefit Matthew SHepherd?
August 2, 2009 at 2:16 pm
It didn’t benefit Matthew. His life journey was snuffed out through someone else’s will. Any good came to others.
August 2, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Then that is not much consolation for Mathew SHepherd and there is no way FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE, to turn his muder into a positive experience. To view it as producing good is completely self centered. bascially what Davey and others are saying is that since THEY benefited from Mathew Shepherd’s murder, it coujd be viewed as positiive. But that is the wrong perspective to look at it from since only Mathew Shepherd suffered. In other words, other people reaped the benefit of HIS death. How does that put a positive spin on what he suffered, and his death was particularly gruesome.
This approach of viewing things from different perspectives just seems to me to be incredibly self involved and incredibly insenstive to the person who actually suffers and in this case, dies.
August 2, 2009 at 4:47 pm
i´m glad there are some people with a common sense out there!
August 3, 2009 at 10:52 am
Add to Matthew’s murder those killed just over the weekend in Tel Aviv and we get a picture of a sick society that thinks it can rid itself of those whom they dispise for whatever reason.
Hatred begets hatred until we see as Ghandi said,”An eye for an eye will only make us blind and toothless.”
We are far from the promised land, with miles to go before we sleep.
Be well,
August 4, 2009 at 6:35 pm
I was moved by what you said, I never thought of his death in those terms but as tragic as it was, you are right some one out there will benefit from the laws that are right now being weighed in because of what happened and if you take the context that way most of the rights and priveliges and other endearments that we take for granted all came at someone elses expense, for instance the right to not be arrested or hassled by law enforcement is a direct result of the bravery of those people in the stonewall bar in 1969. I would say to all of you read a wonderful book called ‘Making Gay History’. Until I read that book I didnt realize how many had given of themselves so that I could have th respect and freedoms i do today as a gay man.
August 5, 2009 at 5:51 am
OMG firstly I thought that it’s about Matthew Fox as Jack Shepherd in LOST and I went crazy that Davy is telling us the finale of the last season
DD
August 5, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Once again, Davy riffs off a blog post and ends up way out of his depth. Easier and easier to ignore this air-headed twinky. Just waiting for Davy’s giggling, breathless intimation that George Sodini, the man who killed 3 women at the gym in Pennsylvania, is …..HOT!
August 5, 2009 at 3:07 pm
[...didn't know about that. Was he hot?]
Rather than it being “easier and easier to ignore this air-headed twinky”, by trying to discredit him with such a spiteful remark, it seems that you’re having a hard time pulling away from Davey(smitten by an unreplied fan letter or something?)
I personally, not living or being from the US, knew very little about Matthew Sheppard and found this particular post, as well all the comments, rather insightful.
August 5, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Er… and so why exactly are you reading this and bothering to reply? Instead of insulting Dave, why don’t you go away and use your obviously vastly superior intellectual qualities of some pursuit worthy of your precious time?
August 5, 2009 at 6:36 pm
So Sad. So very sad.
August 6, 2009 at 4:12 pm
bad things, good people??? i totally agree that bad things do happen to good people but if you think about in depth, there may have been something that kead to the bad thing. On the other hand the bad person just has a bad sense of mind. It is typically a steriotype that bad things hapeen to good people because we don’t actually know what happens behind closed doors; and it’s wrong to assume!
love and peace
Jack
August 7, 2009 at 1:50 am
The tragedy of the Matthew Shepherd’s homicide is that one of the perpetrators, was sexually assaulted as an adolescent and never got help afterwards. So he raged for years within over his abuse. Unfortunately the three met at a bar and the aftermath became even worse a tragedy for all concerned. The people of Laramie will never be able to forget what happened either. The two young men who pistol whipped Matthew to death will spend the rest of their lives in jail.
Totally senseless.
April 27, 2012 at 11:21 pm
Let me start by saying that I admit I see something wrong with gay/lesbian activities & I also see something wrong with sex change mutilations. With that said, why MW SHepard was killed, only he & his killers know. What gets minor talk is who Matthew Shepard was. The fact is that MW Shepard was an Ecstasy user, drunkard who mixed Meth & alcohol with anti-depressants. 2 months before his death he had committed assault&battery on Cody WYo bartender who reacted by decking him. The next day, MW Shepard made up story of being homosexually gang raped. Do those who mourn Matthew Shepard see anything wrong with this? Yes, him being killed in Oct. 1998 is unrelated, but MW Shepard treated people poorly and chose to worsen his PTSD with Ecstasy and alcohol-call him Methew Wayne Shepard. Him being a crime victim doesn’t change that.