Yesterday’s wedding was beautiful. There is nothing that ignites my inner-romantic more than seeing two people so madly in love. My cousin and her now-husband were adorable – very shy and a little embarrassed by all the attention. It was all very sweet, and I’ll spend a good portion of today making them a YouTube video of the experience (part of my wedding gift to them).
It was also the first time in many years that I sat through a Catholic mass, as the ceremony was held in a Providence, Rhode Island church. Though I was raised Catholic, the service really didn’t resonate with me and what I hold to be true. This really didn’t come as a surprise to me. It seems illogical to find any organized religion that would mirror my beliefs exactly. Instead, I find it much more advantageous to pursue my own path in the great Cathedral of this universe.
Unlike my father, I don’t hold a grudge against the Catholic Church. I challenge myself to find those kernels of truth and love buried in Catholic teachings, just as I’d do with any other religion. My dad – not so much. Years ago, back when I was in university, the Catholic Church’s pedophilia scandal was in the spotlight. Countless allegations were flying – and the Church needed to announce some plan to eliminate the pedophile priests. Their plan was a gay “witch hunt” of sorts, interviewing priests-t0-be (i.e., the seminarians) to identify and eliminate the gay ones.
Church leaders are not stupid. They knew what they were doing. Society has long-since linked gay men to pedophilia, a stereotype that social science has entirely disproved. Nonetheless, the Church used this stereotype to their advantage by throwing gay men under the bus (ironically, so many Church leaders are gay themselves); I don’t think my dad will ever forgive the Church.
I don’t have enough time, energy or desire to sustain such grudges, but I do understand my dad’s discomfort. I find much greater power in growing that which I do support rather than resisting that which I do not. I’m not anti-Catholic so much as I am pro-love, pro-peace and pro-unity. And pro-dick, too.
August 29, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Ditto re: being raised Catholic and 15 years of Catholic education. Today’s leadership may be misguided, but it doesn’t mean we give up! As my cousin, a Trappist monk, has said many times: “WE are the Church. Not the bishops, not the cardinals, nor the Pope. If you don’t like it, work from within to change it.” I just spent time with him at a family gathering at his monastery and it was beautiful. (After 60 years as a monk, he is amazing but that’s another story unto itself.)
So, I don’t give up. I disagree vehemntly with many things the Catholic Church teaches, but I have found many – including priests and bishops – who think like me and together we are striving to make a difference.
August 29, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Amen, David. We’re in the same place.
August 29, 2010 at 12:12 pm
I guess the bottom line on all this is your underlying faith in what you believe. I interpret from Davey Wavey’s blog that he has no real issue with Catholicism per se, he just disagrees with the current direction from the hierarchy. So why give up totally? I may not be as active a participant as I was in the past, but it doesn’t change my beliefs. Some have suggested going to the Episcopal church and I have when traveling (e.g., National Cathedral in Washington DC, St. Paul’s in London, or King’s College in Cambridge, England), but that has been to hear their glorious choirs. Yes, the liturgy is virtually the same, but I’m still Roman Catholic and always will be. I can’t abandon it because I have no issue with what Jesus Christ taught. My issue is with how that is being interpreted today. We know it will change. Yes, it may take centuries, but my presence, my actions, my determinism, and my voice will hopefully have some influence.
August 29, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Davide,first of all I think you are pretty special. You are thoughtful, insightful, respectiful, and loving. You obviously have a warm, close, and caring family. And for this I know you count your blessings. Your parents must be awesome people for what you have told us about them. I would love to meet such people. My opinion is that your beliefs are founded upon a certain naiveté that may be due to your being raised not in the US, but in Italy. I think we who grew up in America have experienced the Church in a different way and some feel burned. So they are attacking the Church in defense. It doesn’t matter. Stick with what you believe and live the good life. You are on a different path and it is laudable.
August 29, 2010 at 12:40 pm
That is the key: finding a parish which is in sync with progressive thinking. They are few and far between, but they do exist.
I just had the wonderful opportunity of meeting with one of the priests who was at my parish in Michigan 15 years ago. He now works in Honolulu so it is a rare treat to spend time with him.
It was a parish affiliated with the local university and it was awesome. I got to know this priesrt after attending Mass one Sunday and heard him say in his sermon “It doesn’t matter if you are alcoholic or not, gay or straight. We are all children in the eyes of God.” He said the first part because he himself is a recovering alcoholic. He said the second part for me and anyone else in the church who may have been gay. I invited him to lunch, came out to him and asked if we could find a way to support the gay/lesbian in our part of the state which was largely rural. He took my request to the pastoral team (another priest and a nun) and they supported the founding of a group for gay men and women. They felt it was important to get the support of our bishop, so they took the request to the diocesan offices. We had a new bishop so I asked to meet with him to explain to him the need as well as my perspective. He was wonderful. His one question: “What do you think about celibacy?” was answered with: “I think celibacy is a good thing. But it goes out the window in a committed relationship.” He said nothing more and gave us his approval.
We didn’t affiliate with Dignity, the national organization of gay Catholics in the US, because of their politics with the Church. (It’s not that I don’t support them; I came OUT in Dignity! But I just wanted to avoid further controversy. And we would never have given official approval for a Dignity chapter.) So we called our group “Lambda Catholics” and grew from two co-chairs, me and a close lesbian friend, with the priest at our first meeting to 125 people within 5 years. We also had interest in two other cities forming chapters. We met monthly for Mass and potluck.
Soon the Episcopal group, Integrity, asked to affiliate with us. Being ecumenical, I had no issues with it and we then became Lambda Christians, alternating meetings with Catholic Masses one month and Epsicopal services the next. The first Episcopal service had a woman celebrant which I thought was wonderful.
We have a ways to go, but I truly believe that each of us has the power to make a difference if we do it in a constructive way.
August 29, 2010 at 12:41 pm
Where is St. Michael’s College?
August 29, 2010 at 12:42 pm
If those of you who don’t understand Davide’s affirmations would bother to read some of his posts regarding The Catholic Church wouldn’t even dare after that to open your mouths again. But sure, even those whom have read them, wouldn’t be that stupid to admit that they were wrong because of their ego!!It’s easily to pretend that you know things about something or someone and throw away accusations when in fact you have no clue what you’re talking about. I won’t stay to argue with anybody, you’re just not worth it!
August 29, 2010 at 1:32 pm
Hate isnt a family value, Thiers or Ours, nothing like disscusions on religon to pour gas on the Stakes
August 29, 2010 at 1:39 pm
Yeah, Davey, I’m “pro-dick”, too. What man isn’t? I only know one guy who actually chopped off his penis and testicles, and, what’s more, flushed them unretrievably down the toilet. VERY FEW GUYS WOULD DO THIS to their fuckstick and balls!!
Even in old age (67), my fuckstick gives me great pleasure, even “solitary”. It holds up to old age better than most body parts do. Sure, it’s lost a couple of the magnificent eight inches of length that it still had when I was in my forties. It sputters forth handly any sperm at my orgasms anymore, yet those orgasms still feel as good as ever (well, maybe not so shakingly stupendous as in my teens to thiries, but pretty d–ned good, nonetheless).
However, affection for my fuckstick is not going to make me to condone the priestly homosex scandals of my Catholic Church. The great sexual abuse of boys was a matter of priestly authority exerted at its most tawdry misattribution. If those priests wanted to have consensual sex with their contemporaries (as in the film, “Priest”), fine, but not with boys teenage and younger! I know one of the most noted victims of the Boston Archdiocesan sex scandals, and how he was treated, indeed, sexually enslaved by that priest, is unforgivable. There should be a hunt for these priests, although I do agree that it should not turn into an undifferentiated “witch hunt” for gay priests, per se.
Pax, Jerry Parker
August 29, 2010 at 1:48 pm
Davide, you insight the bashing your get here by the inflammatory statements and accusations you post. Case in point, “They are attacking the Church because they have no courage, honor, self-worth or virtue.”, taken from you last post. I personally have no problem with you believing in the Catholic Church – if it brings you happiness and peace then good for you. I wish you could in turn afford me the same in kind. I am not a fan of the church, it has nothing to do with courage, honour, self-worth or virtue. Thats where I take offence from you post. Can’t we agree to disagree and leave it at that.
When I re-read DW original post I don’t see how he you interpret it as hatred. He doesn’t agree with everything about the church – thats it!
August 29, 2010 at 2:08 pm
It is hatred when the truth is not told. Davey wavey starts his post with kind and beauitful words regarding his cousin marriage but then goes on about the abuse scandal. This is my issue he purposely has distorted the facts. Why prolly because he has simply not looked into it. These hideous abuses and crimes committed against these children in 80. 3 percent of the cases were done by homsexual preist. Gays do not like the truth but truth is not subject to feelings on man. If he was to report this terrible abuse he should have done it honestly. Since same-sex advocates can not change the truth regarding these sins committed against children they try to discredit the messenger—shoot the messenger. When a gay man such as myself has the balls aka courage to speak the truth-many gays are perplexed and confused –how can a gay man do such a thing? Me being gay has absolutley nothing to do with truth. Majority of seriel killers and rapist are white. But yet white men do not deny these truths. Why is it so many gays will deny the obvious truth regarding these abuses? Because they are afraid what the straight world will think. It is my firm belief most straights do not not view gays as child molestor–vast majority of gays do not harm kids. I was upset becasue DW statement is inaccurate to say the least totally dishonest to say the most. I am done damn
August 29, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Who’s truth are we talking about Davide? Yours or Davey Wavy’s? On something as subjective as religion there is not a truth that we can know, that’s why we have to have faith. Faith is strong belief, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
The rest of your argument is just plain ol’ crazy talk. It is barely cohesive and not even worth commenting on. However, I would love to know where you got, “80. 3 percent of the cases were done by homsexual priest” – is your source Catholic Haters Home Journal?
The only thing you have convinced me is that your posts tend to be wiggedy whacked and not worth the time to read.
August 29, 2010 at 2:47 pm
Peter-My friend you prove my point brilliantly.
August 29, 2010 at 3:56 pm
The comments on this post began with very reasonable statements even when there were strong disagreements between people. Now comments on this post have deteriorated to a morass venomous *ad hominum* attacks.
As far as Davide and Michael are concerned: I know them both. I do not question the underlying sincerity of either of them. However, although both of them can be called Christians, they hold very different world views. As I see it they will never settle their differences.
As long as either of them even mentions the other on a public blog, the other will respond and usually a fight will ensue. My OPINION is that they should never get into such acrimonious debate in public, but should do it through more private ways (E.g. email, IM, phone).
In a very real, but distinct ways I can say I love (not in a sexual manner) both Michael and Davide. I cannot foresee any healing between us! I see the world much more like Michael than like Davide. But, as much as Davide and I disagree, he and I are both Catholic.
August 29, 2010 at 5:05 pm
you have to understand when someone hates something and they use religion as their back up for hating something then you have to take a step back, why do they hate it, is it really a teachin? Many will do it cuz they can relate but its true those words didnt come from god or someone wise, it came from one’s own ego and can destroy your positive outlook on true life of living. so when i hear i hate gays its not religion that hates gays it was the “person” who hated gays not a wise source, jesus didn’t go up to someone he didnt like and say I cant help you cuz i dont like you he helped everyone and anyone he could help. when you put your own gains aside and offer yourself to others thats what religion is all about, to not be greedy or vain or mean is the way all and any religion should be. so when I hear the catholic religion , islam, christian, buhdda, etc. hates something step back, “who” really is the one sending negativity out there in the world
August 29, 2010 at 5:26 pm
I can not speak for other religions but the catholic church only loves. To say the catholic church hates gay is not only misleading it is far from accurate. I would encourage any person who is unsure of this great love and respect the church has towards gays–to fully try to understand church law as it is fully routed in Natural and Divine Law. It has no choice. Thanks
August 29, 2010 at 6:20 pm
More like anti-religion. Why signal just one petty religion out?
August 29, 2010 at 8:55 pm
Davide, they attack because they know the Church is wrong and they may have suffered because of it. I believe the Church WILL change its position on this, but it will take many years before they can. We are unfortunately led by a very conservative regime (reactionary to Vatican II) so there is no way we’ll see change in our lifetime. It will take a major crisis in the Catholic Church for change to take place. My cousin, the Trappist, has said “The Holy Spirit is at work creating the crisis with the pedophilia scandal because the Church refuses to deal with reality.” It isn’t likely that in my lifetime I will see change. You might because you are younger. Just know that, as others have pointed out, the Church has changed its position on many things over the things as the truths have become evident. This is but one other issue, as inflammatory as it is.
August 29, 2010 at 10:08 pm
Just like the Republican party claims Lincoln and expects that inappropriate annexation to excuse a history of oppression of gays and other groups, and support of the rich and powerful, Catholic, Inc. claims Jesus and portrays itself as an organization of “love.” Well, history gives the lie to this piece of marketing. Catholic, Inc. is also in the business of supporting the rich and powerful. Why do you think Catholic, Inc. keeps apologizing, 500 years after the fact, for this pogrom or that Inquisition? Thomas Jefferson put together a collection of the sayings of Jesus, because the rest of it was added by folks who want to control us now with the superstition of eternal damnation. Even now, Jesus has nothing to apologize for. Catholic, Inc.? Sorry for what we did 500 years ago while we continue to oppress people today? Not persuasive.
Oh, wait. It’s all justified by natural law. Or divine law. What’s that? Well, it’s whatever Catholic, Inc. says it is.
DW is on the right track, I think. Let’s love each other and try not to get distracted by superstition. Our souls are our own.
August 29, 2010 at 10:39 pm
Your Trappist monk is wrong. It will never change in fact the opposite is accruing and will happen. You will see that Catholic Church ask all homosexual priest to remove themselves from the priesthood this will happen, it already is happened in the city of Rome. The Church is not wrong. The world is wrong. Natural and Divine law are not errors but absolute truths. Tom are you a faithful Catholic? Do you go to Mass every Sunday do you go to confession on a regular basis are you a chaste homosexual if not do you receive communion? If you say yes to any of these except the last then maybe you would know about the faith. If you answered no you are in error.
I do agree the Holy Spirit is working or more like purification of the Church. This is why all homosexual priest, bishops and Cardinals will be asked to leave. This is the work of the Holy Spirt. Openly gay homosexuals have no business being priest. Mark my words these things will come to pass, it is enviable. Your cousin who is a monk is wrong and in error. But I could be wrong but I am not. A year from now 2 at the longest you will tell me I was right.
August 29, 2010 at 10:42 pm
Our souls are not our own they belong to God
August 29, 2010 at 11:26 pm
If there were a god, the only way she would want you to worship her would be by loving all sentient beings. Do no harm, to the earth, to others nor to yourself. Singing hymns or burning candles and incense has nothing to do with any thing spiritual. It is only a reflection of our ego thinking we are pleasing some external force that controls the universe. Schmata and parada. Vestments and ceremony are all empty. Just BE who you are.
Be well,
August 29, 2010 at 11:48 pm
Jesus died because that’s what people do, they die. So will you, so will I, so did Buddha, so did Mohamed. Beliefs only lead to disagreements and eventually to wars.
I don’t need to be called “anti-Jesus” just because the myths surrounding him are mostly fantasy. What he taught was important, not weather he’s up there in the sky somewhere waiting to fly back down to the ground to make things all OK. It’s up to you and me to make things OK.
Church is just the place folks go to on Sundays so that they can spend the rest of the week being scoundrels to the folks who didn’t show up at the same Church they went to. (Replace the word “church” with synagogue, mosque, temple or what have you.) As MLK so aptly put it, we should judge people by the content of their character, not the colour of their skin (or the religion they profess).
Be well,
August 29, 2010 at 11:54 pm
Exactly. I have friends that did just that. wrote to the diocese and said scratch out my name and stop counting me as one of your gang.
Of course they tried to talk him out of with threats of eternal damnation (or was it 74 virgins?) and he just said Do it! And I am sure Jesus still loves him, maybe even more.
August 29, 2010 at 11:56 pm
And where do you get to worship your Mother?
August 30, 2010 at 12:00 am
Carus Davide, Is est quis vos must usquequaque memor ut , Pope est denique vox of Deus in terra. Sit Sanctus Animadverto. Haud ones vox vocis tamen suus res. Vel does is? Vos animadverto EGO don’t reputo current Sanctus Animadverto congruo per Permaneo Sanctus Animadverto John Paul II. Is had VERUS vox vocis of deus EGO fides , Dum rememdium unus has vox vocis of a medeval Pope. Tamen is est iustus meus cents worth.
LRH
August 30, 2010 at 12:02 am
Is there a “delete” button on this blog? Isn’t there a simple way just to say block so-and so”s comments? It would save so much cyber-space.
August 30, 2010 at 12:08 am
Davide, don’t confuse balls and courage with EGO. Yours is humungous, dude.
August 30, 2010 at 12:15 am
This whole line of discussion has been like one big family argument, the kind you are likely to have at a nice wedding. Some uncle gets drunk and makes a pass at someone’s niece or nephew. And another has a fight and makes an ass of himself. Or your aunt freaks out because she just finds out your companion is your lover. Aaaah, family…kinda like churches.
August 30, 2010 at 12:19 am
There is no god. There is no soul. There is only consciousness clouded by ego that is scared shitless because it knows it will die. So the ego makes up all manner of bullshit to hide from reality. It’s OK because life will go on long after the last church has crumbled to dust. Life IS.
Be well,
August 30, 2010 at 10:51 pm
As you can tell from my earlier post, I am very happily Catholic, because that’s where I feel the presence of Christ most strongly. However, I acknowledge that a person can in fact be anti-Catholic (in terms of the hierarchy) and not be anti-Jesus. I know several protestants and I can testify that they all love Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
So there! [sticks out tongue playfully]
August 30, 2010 at 10:54 pm
Beautifully said, Greg! I like the comparison!
August 30, 2010 at 11:51 pm
It’s taken alot of effort, almost a lifetime, but as each day goes by I am freer from the influence of the Catholic Church. Despite the pain and fear of the unknown I never knew it wsa so liberating to pull the veil back and wake up to a scence of meaning that makes more sense then any else that I have been fed my entire life.
No more striving to be a good guy (I’m the best little boy in the world) and preparing for a future date in a celetrial Disneyworld. No more sucking up to this make believe secret overated friend called Jesus.
I no longer look for a man who dresses like my mother but wants to be called daddy to validate me. Thank you; no, I can do that on my own…..
It’s not out there but within me on my timeframe. No more fake hugs and kisses of false hopes and promisses to eventually wake up from.
The show is over; I don’t need Catholic friends holding onto their faith much many self justified travelers held onto the Titanic that fateful night. I need real concepts/friends who are their own life rafts.
Thank you, Jesus, no; I’ve given you way too much time for one lifetime.
August 31, 2010 at 9:51 am
Who decided that this is an “adult” site? I started having sex with a classmate at 14. I just wish there were such a thing as this site back then. I am certain there are lots of younger teens who read and contribute to this site, and I say Wonderful! Where else do you think they can get information about being who they are with pride and dignity? And yes, there are assholes out there who say stupid things from time to time. It’s part of growing up. This site helps us all to grow up just a bit more.
Be well,
August 31, 2010 at 9:56 am
But that, Greg, is exactly the point: carry the message of “love one another” and that is it. I agree, the trappings having meaning for some but aren’t really what it is all about.
August 31, 2010 at 10:37 am
Again, your points are valid. I believe that Jesus Christ was a messenger and that gives me hope. After that, it’s all about the true meaning of faith: either you believe in it or you don’t. It’s an individual choice. Just don’t abandon ship by confusing the hierarchy and their injustices over the teachings of Jesus.
There is a good book that takes on this topic: “Joshua” by Joe Grizone. Jesus quietly comes back to a small town and visits the various denominations to see who is best carrying out what he had hoped for. It wasn’t the Methodists, the Lutherans, the Episcopals or the Roman Catholics. Rather it was the Jews because they have no hierarchy, they are very giving, socially conscious, and the Rabbi is nothing more than a teacher. We have lots to learn.
August 31, 2010 at 10:37 am
Amen
August 31, 2010 at 10:42 am
Sorry, Davide. On this point we disagree. You are young and naive. You have not experienced what we have experienced. As we have pointed out repeatedly, the institutional Church has changed its positions MANY times to suit its own political agenda. So, yes, it will change. It’s just going to take time.
Also, remember that “God doesn’t make mistakes.” Homosexuals are here for a purpose. To remove gay men from the priesthood is ludicrous. Again, the institutional Church is misguided and it is paying a price. You can hold on to your beliefs for as long as you like, but don’t forget the teaching of Jesus: Love one another. That’s all he really wanted.
August 31, 2010 at 10:43 am
It all boils down to faith… Don’t abandon ship because of the insitution.
August 31, 2010 at 10:45 am
Here’s a little humor to change the tone of all this:
There were 3 good arguments that Jesus was Black:
1. He called everyone brother
2. He liked Gospel
3. He didn’t get a fair trial
But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Jewish:
1. He went into His Father’s business
2. He lived at home until he was 33
3. He was sure his Mother was a virgin and his Mother was sure He was God
But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Italian:
1. He talked with His hands
2. He had wine with His meals
3. He used olive oil
But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was a Californian:
1. He never cut His hair
2. He walked around barefoot all the time
3. He started a new religion
But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was an American Indian:
1. He was at peace with nature
2. He ate a lot of fish
3. He talked about the Great Spirit
But then there were 3 equally good arguments that Jesus was Irish:
1. He never got married..
2. He was always telling stories.
3. He loved green pastures.
But the most compelling evidence of all – 3 proofs that Jesus was a woman:
1. He fed a crowd at a moment’s notice when there was virtually no food
2. He kept trying to get a message across to a bunch of men who just didn’t get it
3. And even when He was dead, He had to get up because there was still work to do
Can I get an AMEN?!!
August 31, 2010 at 11:04 am
It’s not about “faith” but “understanding” which I would rather invest in. We can argue with concepts but not knowing the facts. What facts are available vs. myth.
This conversation about religion is very egoic. It’s more “us” based than what is. I’d rather stay in the question of things then align myself with destructive institutions and concepts that maginalize many.
What we know about Jesus is mythical and has very little with the person he was. Immaculate conception? Mary, Oh Please!!!!! what a line……. The trouble is many high functioning people believe it.
August 31, 2010 at 11:34 am
Dave, I am in your camp, I haven’t a lot of time for the the catholic church any more either, but you still have to have faith to believe what you do. It may seem more logical to you but you are not 100% certain either therefore faith is needed.
Just saying, I know a lot of people I have talked with think that because you do not belong to a religion you don’t have faith. Thats not the case – just have faith in something else.
August 31, 2010 at 11:38 am
Forgive me my Latin sucks. But I get what you saying about the pope the only true voice. I also understand you say the pope will be the last man to cry for the sins of the world. And I think you say my voice is like a hundred ships in a harbor? Okay peace to you!!
August 31, 2010 at 11:39 am
Do not deny Peter because of Judas
August 31, 2010 at 11:41 am
Or corrupt the innocent
August 31, 2010 at 11:45 am
Of course you will disagree you are a progressive catholic. And progressive always disagree with truth. You appear to be smart in fact I would argue your brains out think your faith. Davide is no dummy either. But it is what it is. Thanks
August 31, 2010 at 11:52 am
But, Davide, that is the million dollar question: What is the truth???
Again, I believe you are a wonderful person and I respect your position. We just differ on this very important issue. Peace to you.
August 31, 2010 at 11:55 am
What is truth? And you are catholic and have to ask what truth is? I can tell you what truth is not. Confusion and heresy. Okay gotta go see ya
August 31, 2010 at 12:05 pm
You miss my point. Everyone seeks the truth. No one knows what it is. It is faith that gives us a certain belief. But we draw our conclusions based on education, teachings, experience, and conscious. For everyone it is different.
August 31, 2010 at 1:18 pm
I understand your point completely. Listen to yourself. You sound more like a Protestant than a Catholic. You claim to be be a Catholic then be a Catholic, try to be a faithful and Grace-filled Catholic. Your ‘catholic’ faith is not my Catholic faith. But why argue? Especially in this room? If you wish to debate you know where to find me. But bring your sword and bandages you will need both. But you will only end up angry at me and bitter, get that everytime I debate a progressive ‘catholic’ thanks ciao