Earlier in the week, I asked you a question: Are gay men or lesbian women more accepted by society? Here’s my two cents.
In the United States, lesbians probably don’t fear getting beaten for showing affection at a straight bar. Gay men, myself included, do. On the flip side, people are probably going to assume that the two women are doing it for attention. And therein lies the paradox of lesbian acceptance and our society: Lesbian relationships are only accepted to the extent that they’re objectified.
The last time I checked, straight guys weren’t kissing each other to elicit attention from the opposite sex. Yet this same kind of behavior isn’t infrequent among some straight women as the term “lipstick lesbian” denotes (and as my own university experience substantiates).
At some point in human history, a critical mass of straight men decided that lesbian action is hot. But does that translate to true acceptance? I think not.
The problem is in the objectification: It sends the message that though two girls are hotter than one, it’s a party trick at best. So when two women express a true commitment to each other, it’s a harder sell to society at large.
Let’s be clear: Gay men don’t have it easy. No one would argue that. And same-sex male relationships aren’t exactly taken seriously by the masses. But male relationships are taken more seriously than lesbian relationships, and save a few brave straight females, the only people objectifying man-on-man love are us.
And because society doesn’t hold lesbian love in the same (albeit low) regard as gay male love, it’s my belief that society is less accepting of lesbians than gay men; lesbians have it harder.
July 14, 2010 at 9:38 am
I completely agree. Some friends and I decided to camping at the start of the year, one of my friends parents told her she wasn’t allowed to go because “there arn’t any other girls going and we don’t trust you in a group of guys”. I’m gay, the other guy’s twin sister is her best friend and her parents think “lesbians don’t exist, its just for attention”. I guess that’s what you get for having two religion teachers as parents. :/
July 14, 2010 at 9:45 am
Damnit davey, good job for blowing my mind again. I think you’re completely right
July 14, 2010 at 10:07 am
Thank you! Everyone fails to dig deep and see that lesbain relationships tend to be regarded as less serious.
I remember your post on FB. I only saw one other person state a similar answer to this and my own (the person also backed their answer). In said person’s society it is not objectified, but rather seen as contreversial.
Anyhoo! Thanks for your thoughts. I agree 100%!
July 14, 2010 at 10:08 am
i think its not a competition about whos more pitiful… and this discussion somehow seems a litte like that to me…
maybe everyone has good times and hard times and some are more lucky than others… thats all… i guess
but thank you anyway for your opinion! when i read the comments about this topic some days ago i somehow got really angry because a lot of people thought this kind of attention (from straight men) as real ‘acceptance of society’ and thats simply not true.
peace & love ~
July 14, 2010 at 10:13 am
We really need to stop playing the part of the victims this same song and dance is getting old.
Same sex relationships not being taken serious by the masses? Yup your right but who’s fault is this? When many gays go around acting like complete fools with their over the top gay as nails parades..who would take us seriously? I mean come on some of us look like clowns. This is a no brainer.
February 3, 2012 at 11:35 am
thank you i have to agree with you! im straight and have gay and lesbian friends that i love to bits im not homophobic or anything but i just think why do you care what the masses think if your happy doing what your doing then what everyone else says and thinks means s**t all get on with your life and just keep being happy
July 14, 2010 at 10:20 am
omg you’re so right about the objectification!! but corina is right, its not a contest. but yes, its way harder for lesbian relationships to be acknowledged and accepted. if you go to a bar as a gay girl, straight men will say that “you’re only a lesbian cuz you havent been with me” or “i can convert you.” i dont think that gay men get the same thing from straight women.
July 14, 2010 at 10:24 am
This one-note samba about gays being their own worst enemies got old, tired and boring a long time ago. Telling the same fictitious story a million times doesn’t make it true and doesn’t cause anyone with a functioning brain to believe it.
July 14, 2010 at 10:27 am
I gotta disagree I get hit on my girls all the time. Huge turn on for many girls- converting gay men. I know for a fact many women are turned on my gay men and viewing gay sex. Just like straight men are with girls. Only difference girls lie and deny it
July 14, 2010 at 10:28 am
*by
July 14, 2010 at 10:48 am
That is true. Sadly, through my upbringing by the media, I have that underlying thought every time I see lesbians. Since I’ve first seen them, they were just porn (not that i appreciated it). So that’s all I think (knee-jerk first thought. i know better really).
July 14, 2010 at 10:54 am
Very true! I agree!
July 14, 2010 at 12:11 pm
I think you’re absolutely right; lesbians are objectified and people automatically think that two women together is porn. But I do think that when people hear the word lesbian, they automatically think about a butch girl who just looks, well, male. When people see two feminine women together the first word that comes to their mind isn’t “lesbian”, because feminine not what a lesbian stereotypically is.
July 14, 2010 at 12:54 pm
I think that straight males (I refer to them as breeders) are fascinated with “girl-on-girl” action because it feeds their fantasy of having a ménage à trois without having to share a girl with another guy.
July 14, 2010 at 12:55 pm
That’s not the case where I am. The people I know take honest lesbians seriously and are just as bothered by them as they are by the gay males.
July 14, 2010 at 1:03 pm
I never really thought about that. But now that i do, i agree. Like you said both sets of relationships have it hard, but after reading this i have to say Lesbians do have it harder.
Thanks Davey for broadening my mind even further! It’s always excepted!
July 14, 2010 at 1:03 pm
I never really thought about that. But now that i do, i agree. Like you said both sets of relationships have it hard, but after reading this i have to say Lesbians do have it harder.
Thanks Davey for broadening my mind even further! It’s always accepted!
July 14, 2010 at 1:51 pm
i couldn’t disagree more,
life is so much easier for lesbians than for gay men
July 14, 2010 at 2:28 pm
i have to agree with leo (the one above me)
July 14, 2010 at 5:35 pm
I guess the question here is do I need genuine acceptance from society to have an easy life?
I need genuine acceptance from my partner, I need it from my friends but from society at large all I ask is respect enough to at least leave me alone.
The fact that society has a tendency to objectify lesbian women leads to a level of respect that is enough to cause them less trouble rather than a genuine equality. I guess that it is a case of baby steps. I would at this point in time be very satisfied with disinterest from straight men and objectification from women.
I guess it is in part related to Davide’s comments above. I am not a victim and don’t care about any pity. I would love equality absolutely, but in the mean time I would be satisfied with being left alone.
I live in the only Australian state to give the Federal government a decent run for their money on gay marriage, and yet in the most accepting state I still don’t get left alone.
July 14, 2010 at 5:45 pm
“save a few brave straight females, the only people objectifying man-on-man love are us.”
You’ve never heard of Yaoicon have you? It’s dedicated to male-male love and has been, since its inception, primarily aimed at a female audience.
Going back to the subject of this post, my favourite summary is: society loves gay men and women having sex and hates gay women and men having sex.
July 14, 2010 at 7:24 pm
This is BULLSHIT! Lesbians have it way easier then Gay men. And the whole thing about attention is a load of crap. I am a gay male and have been told that I am only doing it for attention…uhm no I am gay and have been since I can remember. Women have it easier, two women is and will always be a straight mans fantasy. And the whole part about they not taken seriously…SERIOUSLY gay or lesbians when are we taken serious any way. We have to fight for our rights and gay or lesbians alike have to work just as hard. Please write about something more interesting then this next time. Like WTF is going on with BP and the freaking oil spill. Once again you disappoint….and the people praising you probably just want to get in your good side and in your pants….People tell it like it is….have an opinion.
July 14, 2010 at 8:42 pm
To some degree this is an apples and oranges debate but there do seem to be some areas where matters seem possible to compare and contrast. Davie’s attempt to state that lesbians have it easier is, in my estimation, an attempt at being a bit of a non-conformist. But his argument, and I say argument alone, is not sufficient enough to build his case. Singularly stating that lesbians have a harder time in society by arguing that they are taken less seriously is inane, or, simple at best. It’s been my experience that many same-sex oriented women aren’t dragged out of the closet kicking and screaming because both sexuality and society at large don’t demand it with such fervor. Like it or not, as a prototypically homosexual male, unless you have the fortune (or misfortune depending on how you look at it) to be masculine and have more typically male interests, you haven’t got a realistic shot in hell of coming through adolescence without being nearly chained up and dragged out of the closet for lack of a better analogy. As much as people prophet on about how nasty, unnatural, sinful, intolerable, or voluntary homosexuality among men is, the case is resonantly simple: even the most unintelligent among us identify most of us with great ease. One need only encounter us for a brevity of time to discern just which side of the field we play for. And I think that this is because there is a host of information that people use to measure people up and in society we tend to assert in some non-verbal yet powerful way that for a woman to be masculine is perhaps unappealing, but for a man to be feminine is positively shameful. Curiously, society seems hellbent on calling out faggot to any male human who falls just inches short of “straight-certainty” yet when a woman lumbers around with all the delicateness of a redwood tree trunk literally bashing everyone with her masculinity each of us is immediately ready to assume she’s just a “tomboy.” It would be the equivalent of a man sashaying down the street with patten leather stilettos enveloped by a neon pink boa with fish nets singing Madonna and having the general population saying things like, “He’s just so creative,” Or, “That guy’s just always been so full of energy,” or “He’s just so in touch with his feminine side– all meant with anything but hate, if not curiosity or pity. And we all know that that man would be berated viscerally even in the tamest of instances. But this is all a greater dynamic associated with gender in society as a whole and how people must endure. So, in closing, so as not to drag this any further, lesbians and gays share a quite distinguished path from one another that can many times seem to mirror one another, but upon further inspection we see that each other’s demons are quite difficult to put on a balance because they don’t result in exact measurements of weight. The community as a whole has to deal with great problems from equality in relationship protection, to financial protections, to family building protections: And all of these things and more have their own unique shadings as they pertain to lesbians or gays. In the end, it begins to sound like classic debates of the past like, “Who has it worst, blacks or gays? ” or “Who had it harder? Those seeking a miscegenistic marriage, or those seeking a homosexual one?” In conclusion, these questions are good to spark debate at best, and help people to learn more, but in the end I think the homosexual community and the relations between lesbians and gay men are far better off when we don’t ask these divisive questions with the purpose of actually elucidating an answer. It’s really the type of thing that begins to play with fire: like saying “Which race is smartest?” or “What color of skin is most beautiful?” or” What color hair or eye is the most desirable?” These questions are divisive and no one really wants to imagine there is an objective answer to that–unless of course it’s them who’s the smartest, most beautiful, most desirable. Let’s come together as much as we’re able people, not push apart.
July 15, 2010 at 1:48 am
I agree that lesbians have it hard term but I disagree as to why. I mean I guess I really cant state anything as fact BC I ma not a straight man, but I dont think men are attracted to women who like other women, it more just having two at once. And they are both SOO attracted to him that they would be together BC for women it isnt that big of a deal.
And I would venture to say that society would think lesbian relationships are more serious than gay men. After all we are the ones who have more of a reputation for sleeping around- EX: bathhouses, AIDs etc.
“Yet this same kind of behavior isn’t infrequent among some straight women as the term “lipstick lesbian” denotes”-It kind of seems like you are saying that lipstick lesbians are straight women, when that isnt not true at all. Maybe i just didnt read it right.
July 15, 2010 at 3:52 am
You could also think of it this way, to hate something you first have to acknowledge that it exists and is an “issue” that is some form of recognition. The whole “your not a lesbian, you just haven’t been with me yet” thing just proves that there is no acknowledgement of their relationships. I’m not saying that hate is ok, but it is at least in a small way, acknowledgement, lesbians don’t have that in many ways in our society.
Devey’s article isn’t about who has it harder, but who is more recognised.
July 15, 2010 at 8:51 am
Although it’s starting to change in the past 10 or 20 years, for the most part homophobia is built into our culture. I don’t think that there’s any significant difference between societal prejudices against gay men or lesbians. Bigotry is inexcusable and unjustifiable and if it’s expressed in slightly different ways against men or women it really doesn’t matter. It’s far too much against both.
July 15, 2010 at 9:10 am
It’s not harder, it’s different, comparing apples to oranges has a flawed comparison to it.
When you talk of equality for women and men, there has to be equality for women and men first, I don’t see the same wages offered for the same job across the board, and I don’t see women being offered the same salaries as men; when was the last time you saw a woman playing in the world cup?
No, lesbians don’t have it harder – WOMEN have not been treated with respect. That’s the crucial flaw with the argument, let’s put the gender preference aside and treat people respectfully.
Cheers!
July 15, 2010 at 11:14 am
Lesbian relationships are not taken seriously because women’s relationships were not regulated in the same manner as men’s relationships.
In post-industrial, Western society, the regulation of gay relationships was important because men held power. It is a major disadvantage in business, for example, if the two men across the table from you are f*****g one another.
Women, on the other hand, had no legal personality — they could not vote, could not enter into contracts, and were basically non-persons.
This has translated, I believe, into today’s treatment of lesbian relationships. I do, however, feel this will change now that gay and lesbian relationships are legally recognized in more and more jurisdictions around the world since, as women, lesbians have control over reproduction. Go lesbians!
July 15, 2010 at 12:25 pm
I think lesbian relationships tend to be taken lightly because so often they move in together very early in the relationship and then it’s over three months later.
July 15, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Davey, Well, maybe there is hope, in the long haul, for all of us. If straight men find lebians making love woman-on-woman to be “hot”, and if in Japananese pop culture women find gays hot (male-on-male sex), then maybe gays will find man-on-woman sex to be hop, and straight guys and gals will be shamed into finding (like the Japanese) man- on-man sex hot, too! Then, panting, we’ll all live tolerantly and hornily forever! L.O.L.!
Pax, Jerry Parker
July 16, 2010 at 12:22 am
Our thoughts create our reality. consequently if we believe we have it hard then we do. If we live live or view the world through the eyes of a victim or a 3rd class citizen then we will experience life accordingly. It doesn’t serve anyone to feel that they have it harder than anyone else. Everyone’s life has its challenges and none of us know what anyone else is really going through. We’re all in it together and no matter how hard our life seems I feel we have a duty to work together – even with those who might seem to make life hard for us.
July 16, 2010 at 8:21 am
MD-I know this prolly come as a complete and under shock to you but I agree! Oops how that happen?
July 18, 2010 at 9:50 am
Yeah, I have never been a fan of the conversion propositions.
Great post!
July 20, 2010 at 9:04 am
yeah no one takes lesbians seriously. even gay guys have told me that if i had some penis id prob want to b with men…wtf. u would think gay dudes of all ppl would understand. and some str8 guys always tlk about how hot it is until they find out that they dont want anything to do with a man, then it turns into hate.a violent type of hate. some women think it too. its ridonk. and every1 says that we dont really have sex, and its just an emotional thing blah blah blah. in a society that exploits female beauty at every turn why is it so hard to think that girls are sexually attracted to other girls? maybe its bc they are always portrayed as chasing after men. idk. u would think that since men arent the ones being sexualized to the extreme it would b harder to believe that gay guys are into each other. I don’t like girls for the “emotions”, the “feminine touch” all that stereotypical girly bullshit, I like em cuz i think they are effing hot. guys just dont do it for me. if i wanted to be with a man i would (doesnt seem to take much). it would make life a whole lot easier.
July 21, 2010 at 6:28 pm
There is more to liking a man or woman than whether or not they are the epitome of their gender. Personality, physical appearance, likes and dislikes, there are many things that come into play. And, if you don’t mind me being frank, pornography is far different than a relationship. People watch what they will because it’s a fantasy and they likely wouldn’t be able to see or participate in that in real life–at least not at that moment.
July 22, 2010 at 3:23 am
depends on the lesbian ._. those poor lipstick lesbians =[ they are the ones that get the most objectified because they are gorgeous. if you see a butch lesbian couple people just look at them weird. my mothers do. one of my friends said that if i ever find a boyfriend that i cant kiss him on the cheek because it makes him uncomfortable. wtf? i dont like it when anybody does PDA and they do it all the time. it will be a cold day in hell when people think gays are okay. ._. hey maybe 2012 gays will be able to get married which causes all religion to basically implode on its self xD ((dont hate me for this. just in a rant mood))
July 26, 2010 at 11:45 pm
im sorry but thats just wrong. the fact that lesbians can be seen as sexy does not have the same dehumanizing effect that animosity and perception of total moral failure that’s comes with male homosexuality.
At least they are still women. They get to keep that part of their identify. Gay men on the other hand lose all their status. They must give up their identity, that is objectifying someone, that is dehumanizing. to have that ripped away…
in order to change the extra hostility towards gay men one of two things must happen. Either women must stop acting revolted at the idea of two men kissing and be willing to date a Guys who have kissed a Guy. Or guys must stop caring about how women want men to act. As of now women are threatened by competition with other males (a new form of competition) so they will not date men with fluidity in their sexuality.
August 5, 2010 at 1:45 pm
Yes, indeed, privilege remains a mostly male right. And as with so many other things — jobs, pay, promotion, society valuing you — women generally suffer. But if you want to look at the level of dismissiveness of queer folk, best you look also at dykes of color. And I’d contend that fags of color are on the bottom of the heap (no pun intended). Because when traditional maleness is the privilege/norm, then men “violating” it are the worst offenders. And that plays out in society. It’s why “Don’t ask, don’t tell” has had such legs as a discriminatory policy. It’s not that the brass is/has been worried about lesbians — they’re terrified of the gay man.
And here’s a question: Since when did “lipstick lesbian” refer to a straight woman being affectionate w/another woman to gain a straight man’s attention? Among my friends, I’ve only heard it used in reference to a d**e who’d be very comfy in a glamour shots situation — all dolled up, with lipstick on.
September 2, 2010 at 10:11 am
No individual can say that one section of the community as a whole has it harder or easier than the other.
What I find hard, you may find easy. Making assumptions about a cross section of society is to ignore individuality and ignoring individuality makes it harder for us all.
May 22, 2011 at 4:45 pm
EXCUSE ME I have a friend hwho is lesbian and has only had UNO girlfriend, BTW I am a straight girl. Gay men and Lesbian women i believe have it the same in the perception of acceptance… ALMOST NONE. but lesbians aren’t taken seriously AT ALL. another BTW WHY would anyone want to “get on his good side its not lk Davey’s our boss or our father-in-law! AND although he is super duper hot, as we all know, he’s gay and has shown no sings of turning back (btw- Davey if this OFFENDS you at all I am SO sorry really I love you and your blogs and videos rock xoxo) PLUS he has a bf you are R E T A R D E D….. go **** yourself thats all the s** you’ll be getting JERK. Whether your gay or straightyour NEVER gonna get any “action” of any sort with anyon who isn’t a drunk PETIFILE!!!!!!!!
Moving on: Luv ya Davey! xoxoxo
August 11, 2011 at 3:33 am
Hi! This post couldn’t be written any better! Reading this post reminds me of my previous room mate! He always kept talking about this. I will forward this page to him. Fairly certain he will have a good read. Many thanks for sharing!
March 29, 2012 at 10:07 am
Being male automatically gives men more rights. Gay or not. And any man that would deny that is a fool. Women are looked at by so many still as only sex objects for the male population. So if a women is with another women men see it as some sort of stupid conquest to sleep with one or both of them. They ask me things daily like, “What MADE you gay?” and “Did some guy do something to you to make you hate all men?” It is offensive because I do not hate men in any way. Each gender has its pros and cons and I see us as equal but I happen to be attracted to women and I have been with my girlfriend a good two years now and do not see that ending. So why is our relationship not taken seriously by more then a handful of men I know?