It’s easy to confuse the finger that points to the moon with the moon.
Similarly, it’s easy to think that Bible is truth. It’s not. Just as the finger points at the moon, the Bible points at truth. The Bible is not truth in and of itself, it’s just a (sometimes) useful road map to arrive at something greater.
In the car yesterday, I saw a billboard that proclaimed: “Jesus is the only way.” My judgmental self cringed at the thought of a church or individual hawking such a divisive message. But that is their path, and I will not contribute to the divisiveness through further ranting.
In my experience, Jesus is one of many ways.
My very limited understanding of things greater than myself have come from Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, spirituality, life, so-called mistakes and problems, suffering, pain, love, family, friends, relationships, youtube, trees, flowers, food and my dog. Just to name a few. All of these are my teachers.
There is no one book or creed or person that has all of the answers to the questions that I ask. But when I take a little from here and little from there, I begin to construct a tapestry of perspectives that resonates with my experience on this planet.
December 7, 2009 at 3:15 am
“The shroud of Turin isn’t even a 2000 year old piece of cloth.” See if someone tries to sell a picture of it etched on a Pop Tart on E-Bay. “I want to believe.”
December 7, 2009 at 6:48 am
Religious foolishness continued from:
http://www.alternet.org/story/144354/
Religious experiences are inherently irrational — beyond questions of reason or evidence.
Why should that be?
I’ve heard this argument a thousand times. And nobody making it has ever been able to explain to me: Why should that be?
Religion is a hypothesis about the world. It’s not a subjective personal experience, like, “I passionately love this woman and want to marry her.” It’s not a personal instinct or judgment call, like, “I think my life will be better if I quit my job and move to San Francisco.” It’s not a personal aesthetic opinion, like, “Radiohead is the greatest band of this decade.” It’s a hypothesis about the world — the real, external, non-subjective world. It’s an attempt to explain how the world works, and why it is the way it is.
So why should it be beyond reason or evidence?
Unreason and emotion, personal instinct and flashes of insight are all important. Our lives would be flat without them, and they can tell us important truths. But they tell us important truths about ourselves. When it comes to finding out what is and is not true about the real, external, non-subjective world, these methods are far too flawed, far too biased, to blindly trust as the sole foundation of our understanding. Instinct and intuition can give us ideas about the world — but we have to then rigorously test those ideas and make sure they’re consistent with the evidence. History is full of scientists getting brilliant ideas in flashes of intuition — but it’s also full of scientists getting flashes of intuition that turned out to be balderdash.
The careful gathering of evidence, and the rigorously rational analysis of that evidence, has shown itself time and again to be the best method we have of understanding the world. It’s biased and flawed too, of course, as are all human endeavors. But compared to casual observation, personal intuition, and each individual’s biased analysis of what seems to make sense to them, it’s much, much better.
And every time religious claims have been carefully evaluated by a rigorous scientific method, they’ve collapsed like a house of cards.
The only reason believers fall back on this “religious experience is inherently irrational, beyond reason or evidence” trope is that reason and evidence don’t back up their beliefs. This trope isn’t an argument. It doesn’t support the claims of religion. It merely serves to armor religion against the expectation that it support its claims.
December 7, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Continuing with the great exposure of religious illogic, delusions and foolishness from: http://www.alternet.org/story/144354/
Religion can’t be proved or disproved with 100 percent certainty. Therefore, it’s a question of personal faith, not subject to reason or evidence.
Here we have a classic case of special pleading.
Almost nothing can be proved or disproved with 100 percent certainty. And proving with 100 percent certainty that something doesn’t exist is virtually impossible.
Which is why we don’t apply that standard to any other kind of claim.
We don’t say, “Well, you can’t prove with 100 percent certainty that the Earth orbits the Sun — it could be a mass hallucination caused by a mischievous imp — so we should give up on deciding whether it’s probably true, and call it a matter of personal belief.”
With every other kind of claim, we accept a standard of reasonable plausibility. With every other kind of hypothesis, we accept that if there’s no good evidence supporting it, and there’s a fair amount of evidence contradicting it, and it’s shot through with logical flaws and internal inconsistencies, and similar claims have never turned out to be right…. then unless that situation changes, those are good enough reasons to reject it.
Only religion gets the “If you can’t disprove it with 100 percent certainty, it’s reasonable to believe it” standard. Why?
When asked, “What evidence do you have that this is true?” how is it reasonable for believers to reply, “You can’t absolutely prove that it isn’t”? How is that even an argument? How does it support the claims of religion? How does it do anything but armor religion against the expectation that it support its claims?
The armory of ignorance and superstition is replete with nonsense that only the credulous accept.
December 8, 2009 at 12:57 am
My God Leland you are so full of psycho-babble gibberish!! It certainly demonstrates that you are living with massive internal strife. It explains a lot, that’s for sure. But listen up my little Beck Idiot.. your never ending urge to lash out to those daring souls engaged in the simple crime of acknowledging something higher than ourselves.. is making you look like you’re close to losing control of yourself.. I mean, you really are exhibiting a nasty case of anguish. Obviously you being tricked by those rascally Christians for so many decades.. has taken it’s toll. You know, those lost decades you mentioned in which you obviously were kidnapped and forced against your will to immerse yourself in all that Christian culture of love.. and with all those Christians taking advantage your poor mental capacity.. and tricking you into believing that you are NOT the highest, most perfect, all encompassing top of the heap, in all of Creation!! How dare they! How could they not see that YOU are as good as it gets! And that to even think there is someone or something bigger and better than YOU, must have been a real blow to your ego.. The pain.. the agony you must have felt once you discovered all by yourself, that there is nothing higher or better than YOU.. Ouch!
That clearly hurt your feelings.
Anyway, I’m guessing that in place of that cold void in your heart.. you harbor a “Secret”. And that “Secret” is a desire to find something higher.. you know.. higher than yourself.. (because Duh.. even you know there clearly is..), and in order to satisfy your emptiness and give your “Secret” a way to express itself, you have adopted the blind faith of believing in man-made global warming.. a religion unto itself.. I know you will dis-avow the “true believer” faith based aspect of the Chicken little, sky is falling, flat earth society, that has evolved into the “Global Warming” belief system.. with Al Gore as your High Priest, Holy Sacraments such as, “recycling”, the Mortal Sin of “leaving Carbon Footprints”,(unless you gave at the altar of Carbon Credits), and the Mortal Sin of “Polluting”.. with a God.. Your God, Mother Earth.. Anyway, for some reason I’m betting you have hitched your wagon to that faith based religion.. And if you want to know how I know..
Why it’s because those who believe in “nothing”..
Will always believe in Anything..
December 8, 2009 at 6:03 am
Continue-on, Jack. But i hope we can all “disagree Without being diagreeable” and resorting-to calling-each-other names. And i now “Apologize to anyone” i may have called-a-name, the same of which was “Very-immature” on my-part, and “Please-Forgive me!” Nevertheless, i continue to enjoy the “Lively-Discussion” among us-all. After-all it is always great to learn what “Davey and each-of-us”: Knows, Thinks and/or Believes.
Love and Peace to “All”, – - davvi
December 12, 2009 at 4:58 pm
YIKES!!!!!
December 14, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Jesus is the ONLY way? I think Jesus himself would disagree with that BLIND statement. Not sure of the Quote or Passage but didn’t the MAN say that there are a thousand (roads or ways)to his Father’s Kindgom?
I check out all religions and Glean from them. I,m Byzantine Catholic but BUDDA ROCKS!!
December 15, 2009 at 2:37 am
haha, word
March 3, 2010 at 11:15 pm
james if ur asking if that quote comes from the bible.. then no it doesnt say there is thousand ways to his father’s kingdom..as a christian i can respect that davey sees it different than me but also i can respect jons action’s. It’s kinda like when u fine out a company u like doesnt suppoert gay rights it makes u not wanna buy there product no more….
January 10, 2010 at 8:34 am
Dear Wavey Davey or whatever is your name. I just recently found your blog and I must say I enjoy it a lot. You DO have a lot of interesting things to say! Besides, your frank and offhand manner are rather pleasant. Of course, anytime one starts to talk religion the can of worms gets opened again and off we go on a roll of varied opinions! Whee! I have studied a number of religions and religious philosophies, psychology and the lot. In the final analysis I tend to agree with you: no single religion can state to be the ONLY path to salvation/redemption/enlightment. The fact that certain religions do is a sorry truth. Nonetheless, i find your approach very wise indeed. You show more wisdom than the entire Vatican, the buddhist lamaseries in Tibet, the Hindu swamis in India, the collective lot of religious would be leaders in the American continent (and the European one, for that matter!)because in essence you say one thing (and correct me if I am wrong): it does not matter what you believe in so long as you believe in something that at the end of the day gives you satisfaction, hope and a warm feeling inside; whether that would be Jesus, Buddha, the spirit of Mother Earth or just plain good old sex, it matters not what it is? Are we on the same “wave length” Davey Wavey, or Wavey Davey? (whatever!) I hope to hear from you since I’d be interested in exchanging views about life and so forth. Ciao from Italy!
February 1, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Actually I think Davey has a real point. The Bible is not truly the “word of God” but the interpretations of his word by the men who wrote the books. I was raised catholic, but I am currently Wiccan, because I could no longer live with the hypocracy of the Catholic faith. Yes there are some good basis morals to go by, but many Catholics tell me I am going to hell for being me, yet in the Bible it says “thou shalt not judge”, nowadays, those who hang on the teachings of the bible twist them around to suit their own purpose. I could talk for hours about the years of research I have done, and the masses of information about the bible and the whole christian faith as a whole, but I will not, because if you truly want to know the truth, then you have to search your own soul and dig the information up for yourself. Seeing is believing in the modern time, and so it is better to do the search yourself than rely upon someones word.
April 21, 2010 at 4:08 am
Guys, all sin is evil, but FAITH in Jesus and the crucifixion, flowing of the Blood of Jesus, my Bible says, forgives you of your sin and you won’t ever be condemned again! But you have to keep the faith! This is what I firmly believe as I believe in the Bible!!
April 21, 2010 at 7:39 pm
I’m sorry for you then…
but as a tolerate freethinker, I’m gonna change and say “Good for you!”
June 3, 2010 at 11:51 pm
So I can assume that since you “know” that the Bible isn’t truth, I can say that you aren’t speaking truth because you yourself don’t believe in truth. OK, then… I say that you’re wrong. You yourself said that you have a very limited understanding of things, and that you do, and the things that you do understand you truly don’t understand because you don’t know the truth. You, my dear friend, are fooling yourself to believe that the Bible isn’t truth. You are a slave of Satan… a SLAVE. Is that how you wanna live your life? As a slave to sin and lies? The Bible is the only truth… “Then you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32) May God show you the truth this very day.
June 4, 2010 at 12:41 am
Amazing! After all of this time, people are still trying to defend the stupid mythology in the bible. Get over it! Its a bunch of poorly written fairy tales. Davey Wavey is absolutely right.
June 4, 2010 at 6:49 am
Amazing post. Clearly demonstrates that reason and facts mean nothing to you. There is no satan just like there is no god. They are all mythological critters like Hera, Apollo, Zeus, Horus etc.,etc.,etc. Of course this sort of ignorance is part of the reason that so many from other western cultures think that Americans are more than just a little crazy.
June 4, 2010 at 4:03 pm
Hi Abby,
I agree with you that the bible is truth, however Jesus also says that if you can’t find the truths of the bible without the bible and figure them out without referencing the bible that you have no right to live by them or believe them and in fact to believe in a scripture without being able to find the same epiphany in life without that bible reference is stated as a sin!
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 2:58 am
Hey Leland,
Sorry to burst your bubble but actually these stories are truth. Let me explain why these supposedly fantastic stories are truth. The are because when you read these stories not only the ones you mentioned from the old testament but also those from the new testament, when a person reads them they do need to take into context cultural realities as well as the meanings of words at the time. For example when you have Christians at the time of Jesus as well as after the death of Jesus, when they say church the word defines the human race not a place of worship, hense the story of the shephard who has lost one lamb out of his hundred and leaves the other 99 to look for his lost lamb and after finding him ends up loving him more than all the others. Then you have the story of Mary’s immaculate conception, scientifically this is possible however the child would have been an exact clone of Mary, but in context to the defenition in The Bible the reason it was considered a virgin birth was because if a normal everyday woman at that time had sex with a God she would still be considered a virgin for her to loose her virginity she would need to have sex with a man who was normal or common like her, hense the immaculate conception of Jesus. Then to define the word God for you, first of all the translations of The Bible that we read today use the word God in the wrong context a lot because of limited comprehension of Ancient and Old Hebrew the word God was used in place of persons that had a similar meaning to God yet it was used for more than one type of person in the bible we use today. Anyway a God during the times that the books in the bible that we have mean a man of unconditional power who is so powerful spiritually as a leader as a ruler of mankind that he has a literal God status to the people of the world. In context pharoh, who in ancient times we had a generally polytheist world because people worshiped more than one all powerful being. However the creation of Christianity in the Old Testament by Akhenatun created the concept of an all powerful God of all peoples. It was when Akhenatun was killed that Moses a high priest in this new concept monotheistic religion, led the Israelites out of Egypt, however with the spread of Christianity if the religion were to remain monotheistic then it had to be as if Akhenatun had not died, hense not being able to look up God or see his exact form. So when it comes to the conception it’s just that Mary had intercourse with a man who was not a man he was an all knowing all powerful God……… you make your own choice whether he was or not but you get my point. In the Old Testament references to any type of figure that we would consider heavenly would have similar conotations to that of God by the same people however most likely not so powerful a figure.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 3:04 am
Hi kostas,
You’re right kostas, but I think it is easily and constantly misunderstood, if you look back on the history a lot of what present day Christians would say is hypocritical in context to the realities at the time not only are those things not hypocritical they are encouraged by Christian teachings.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 3:14 am
Hey Bob,
Actually The Bible was decided at the treaty of Marsilles (might be spelled wrong) during the reign of Emperor Constantine in the Roman Empire. The only reason it was made as it was had nothing to do with armies it was because Christianity was spreading so quickly through the Roman Empire that Constantine was already dealing with riots and violent protests by the common peoples of Christian belief to the point of coming close to loosing his empire and his Emperor status. Constantine was born a pagan and even did not completely revert to Christianity in his life time but he took on the fight to spread Christianity and to create the bible we use today as a tool to maintain control of the empire and keep it united. The Bible was put together by important political and religious authorities of the time at the treaty of Marseilles.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 3:19 am
Hi Woody,
You gonna believe everything the Vatican tells you?!!??!
The male creator of Christianity was married to both a man and woman.
Kenneth R. Livingston
It’s speculated that he was actually a hermaphrodite due to the way he is depicted in archaelogical artifacts and pictures.
June 5, 2010 at 3:20 am
Hi Woody,
Remember the Vatican has only been here since quite a while after the Old Testament had already become the very old Christian teachings.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 3:30 am
Hey Woody,
Maybe the Vatican and the Cardinal should read Thessalonians I & II again then, and then put it into historical context. Hmmmm…… so when the Apostle Paul wrote these two letters to the Thessalonians, we hear in Paul’s letters almost the complete praise to the Thessalonians abilities to be the best Christians with little or no correction in their beliefs and their living by Paul. OK now lets put this in cultural and timeline reality hmmmmmmm…… oh the Thessalonians are a culture that unconditionally supported and promoted homosexuality at the time Paul wrote the letters……. hmmmmmm…. but if the Vatican and this Cardinal are right well the letters that Paul wrote to the Thessalonians would not sound like this??!?!?!?!?! Holy people you think the Vatican has some type of answer to get through the gate to heaven pfffss……
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 3:32 am
To Woody,
To clarify at the time Paul wrote the letters homosexuality was practiced by almost all Thessalonians it was a part of their culture.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 3:43 am
Hey Leland,
Ummm…..Yes scientists do know for a fact that Jesus existed I don’t know where you get your info from I assume your Mom or something told you that and you believe her. There are studies being done in Turkey on a mountain I believe don’t quote me Mt. Aararat on what scientists believe to be Noah’s Ark.
The third the flood did scientifically happen you need to look into Geological and Geographical History, but I guarantee you the Mediterranian Sea exists and it did not before!!!
Kenneth R. Livingston
If you haven’t looked even slightly into the info you’re posting please don’t post even if you’ve just touched on it fine, but if someone just told you something and you decided to believe it please just make informed posts not opinion unless it’s about your personal beliefs I just meant the proof stuff
June 5, 2010 at 3:50 am
Hey Jack,
That last little short snippet at the end was awesome lshmsfoaidmt……..Laughing So Hard My Sombrero Falls Off And I Drop My Taco
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 4:00 am
Hey Leland,
Great just don’t get to caught up in the science that you can physically see and feel. Humanity on a scientific level is only now doing the scientific tests to study and understand through research those things which are non-physical, like when you just though of someone and the phone rings and it’s them. If you look into it the largest amount of research and scientific experimentation being done in this area is being done by a department of the US government.
Just saying don’t forget to love cuz even if you can’t physically feel it I guarantee you can “feel” it!
Kenneth R. Livingston
Things like when people dream something BEFORE it happens and then it happens
June 5, 2010 at 4:05 am
Hey Leland,
Interesting article I had not realized that Athiesm was actually a religious thing or religion?
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 4:18 am
Hey Boys,
Not to harsh or nothing but do you know how many religious cults and groups are started in California every year some take flight for 2 months or 6 months or 5 -7 years, but if ANY of them ever actually amounted to anything you would not want to be living in the US right now period, regardless of whether they were a Christian cult or some other type of cult.
Kenneth R. Livingston
The only thing I can think in relation to your high levels of concern is that the two of you must live very close to their building or personally know people who are involved or are in contact with the cult
I’m sorry you boys have had to deal with the cult
June 5, 2010 at 4:26 am
Hey Leland,
I don’t deny what you are saying, but a Christian does not have the right of judgement and must be unconditionally compassionate. My point is if someone tells you something; for example: “We are Christians telling Gay people that they will go to hell if they don’t change.”, first of all if you know the historical cultural realities of Christianity these people obviously are not Christians, second no Christian or Christian group out there has the omnipotence to tell you if God is going to choose to send you to hell or not. So in other words my point is just because someone tells you something ie: that they are a Christian your gonna take their word for it.
Hell I could put a dress on then and tell people that I’m a girl without big honkers and that anyone who doesn’t do the same will end up in jail or go to hell.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 4:33 am
Hey Cal,
I know what you mean to make a relative to the historical time Christian reference. I hope that’s OK if I use a Christian one. I know for sure that New Testament Christianity and the time that Jesus spent with his disciples was a lot like all the different conversations we’re having on this post of Davey’s, is that not the way it sounds when the Disciple speak of their time with Jesus when they reference him in The Bible. They talk of all the philosophical conversations they had while in Jesus’ company. This is good if anger and judgement can be removed from the situation it’s not about people being right or wrong but about people debating sharing what they know and thinking about things, for new better epiphanies for us to find a way to rise above our humanity!!!
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 4:35 am
Hey Cal,
I forgot to say one more thing it’s not about converting anyone, it’s about sharing our life experiences and opinions and lessons and learning from one another a better way whether that Christian or Celtic or just spiritual or something else.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 5:32 am
Hey Leland,
I hate to say it but you got to me with your rationale and logic, however these are tools of manipulations equal if not more complicated to deal with than these groups you mentioned that DELIBERATELY LIE TO THEIR FOLLOWERS! I think I’ve caught it because you were EDUCATED in theology or religion. In my own life I grew up with my grandfather being a man educated in religion and ministry with similar ways of investigating not even close to the same, but the process you both go through sounds similar. As well my father and step-mother and grandmother are all teachers. Logic and Reason are the worst forms of manipulation that a person can use I could say sounding assertive “I love YOU! I just hate when you have the music so loud.”. Sounds pretty logical pretty assertive right, well yah it is the problem is the psychological affect first of all it teaches a person to not be firm enough in their statement creating confusion hence low self confidence and low self esteem in the person at the receiving end of the comment. Your comment and many comments made here on this post by Christians and people of other beliefs as well is a lack of comprehensiveness. Just to make simple for everyone for example you made the comment about how the “darling” of the Reformation was an anti-Semite, OK well first of all their is speculation around who is the real “darling” of the Reformation, and second of all if you follow the actual infrastructure that took the Reformation on it’s journey the Reformation was not an anti-semite revolution. Knowing my family who is supporters of the Reformation and the fact that my Grandmother and Grandfather adopted a child from a different darker ethnic group makes this comment contradictory. Everyone I know is a supporter of Reformation and if anyone got caught making racial slurs etc. the punishment would not be nice.
Then there is the fact that people use one phrase from this scripture or that with out context to the people the scripture is being written to as well as the cultural realities of the region as well as the way the culture used a word this way or that, then you have the fact people are for the most part comparing Christianity to nothing or just random events in current history back to old history. Someone made a comment about how the prominently Christian world went through an age of enlightenment or what ever word labels that movement they referenced, hence that most countries with prominantly Christian histories currently have less violent protest and civil war than countries who did not go through that philosophical movement. For example the fact that the Communist self proclaimed non-religious China allows more Christian growth than the growth of other religious movements as they know because of how Christianity is taught today that there will be less stress in dealing with their personal opinion on political intent. Then the reality that it doesn’t really matter what religion or what part of the world you live in cultural opinion for the most part is in general more powerful then any religious movement or belief system. You may have one culture who tells the world that they are the true Christians who promote or despise homosexuality. Then you can have a religious people like the Buddhist Tibetans who in non-Buddhist world explain that their teachings are of peace and compassion, when in reality their ideology is almost identical to Christian teachings. Through their manipulation of the media they allow people to believe what they choose. They do not put in the media the civil war between the two sects of Buddhist monks that have been going on for hundreds of years on who has the right to find the new Dali Lama and the brutal bloodbaths in their history over this issue.
Davey’s post however it was meant to be detracting from The Bible contradictorily is not, what Davey said in his post is one of the teachings of The Bible that we know today. That is my point and I think the point actually that Jesus wanted to make was that we need to have these talks these debates these discussion, these studies of science as has been promoted by Jesus and quoted in The Bible. That’s what he did with his disciples right, yet we must keep in mind that it is a learning experience not an I win or you do. There is need for logic and reason, but there is also need of blind faith, blind love, and an acknowledgment of what we can’t see.
It’s not just those small events it’s every event put together in a huge beautiful painting of blood reds and browns and blacks and heavenly blues and whites and yellows and every other color imaginable. Some colors in the painting don’t run, some don’t diminish, some take up large spaces and then you don’t find them anywhere else on the painting but in every color we can find white and black it’s these two place and everywhere in between them that give us such a beautiful emotionally angry, joyful, loving, peaceful, hurtful experience. Then don’t forget what’s out there beyond the painting.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 5:40 am
Hey davvi,
I agree with you!
Kenneth R. Livingston
When it comes down to it in the reality of the world even if Leland was right he would still loose because Jack tries to manipulate with his passion whereas Leland tries to manipulate with logic and rationale, they are both forms of brainwashing one form more staying than the other though…anyway.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 5:55 am
Hey davvi,
Hate to say it but I think you need to come to your own conclusions it’s quite obvious that you have been infected by Jack’s conviction and passion. His personality type is great to have among our humanity in fact in most cases it’s what gets things done through their ability to inspire others. But you obviously have a very different opinion than Jack but what I can read in YOUR post in comparison to his and just look to him as a source of firmness, steadyness, passion and conviction. Which yes creates love in every corner of the world…….but every man or woman on the planet still needs to think for himself!
Kenneth R. Livingston
I hate to say it but the love of my life is just like him……. they don’t let especially strangers most of the time try to even hide it from their families…….. she is the love of my life and I am the love hers she’s wrong more often than she is right….. she only lets others hear what she knows with complete absence of doubt, OR her ability to back it up
June 5, 2010 at 6:00 am
Let me post I stand behind my girl with everything I am everything I’m not, what I can imagine, what I know, what I don’t know, and with complete faith, love and devotion. Even when I know she’s wrong I stand behind her and just give her the resources to find right. I don’t judge her value her above all else! But I can’t take back what I know to be true either!
June 5, 2010 at 6:14 am
Hey Leland,
You proved the point I made earlier about how cultural beliefs define a peoples more than religious beliefs. Because the comments you made in the paragraph with the Nazi reference as well as the paragraph after are false. The racial issue had as far back as can be remembered been prevalent in Europe, Eastern as well as Western previous to the spread of Christianity, Christianity being a comparatively new concept to the regions gave people a sense of self worth, and self-esteem which had not been known to people on such a individual personal level, hence the expansion within the culture and society of the already existant traditional and cultural beliefs of the peoples.
I should note that the region was experiencing also the relaxed acceptance of New Testament Christianity, hence also the condemnation of the Jews or the people of the Old Testament.
It was the ancient social/cultural realities coupled with possible individual enlightenment offered by Christianity.
Kenneth R. Livingston
In other words racism is not a Christian movement!
June 5, 2010 at 6:41 am
Hey Leland,
You did notice how the last two statements in the article completely nullified the contents of the rest of the article, just by the mere fact that science in this take on it or atheism is obviously a religion. Just by the bullshit I read that has nothing to do with the living experience. If you are old enough to have a degree in theology or whatever and you can post and article that makes a claim that the spiritual realm doesn’t exist. You definately have not lived life and probably won’t if that’s what you believe. Also Jesus promotes Christians in his scriptures to study science. I’m thinking if with even one particle of your being you can deny that spirituality or the non-physical exist, that you may have been born with a sense that doesn’t work like some people are born blind, or born def. Cuz there is no doubt in my mind it exists I interact equally on a non-physical and physical level all day everyday I just thought everyone did that, that it was normal, well I guess we do need to be compassionate to those with disabilities! By the way research being done by the US government over the last half century shows conclusively that the non-physical/spiritual world is a scientific reality, it is a new form or concept of science but it is this science being rediscovered with better technology that religions and religious people have used for thousands of years!!!!
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 6:49 am
Hey Leland,
Then I say again why do you follow the religion of atheism, this is the same religious rhetoric you say other religious groups use!
Kenneth R. Lviingston
June 5, 2010 at 6:59 am
Hey Leland,
Or you could try joining science with religion, read a bible before you talk about science like it opposes Christian belief! Or like Christian belief opposes science. Cuz the Catholic Church opposes science all of a sudden Jesus told his disciple and followers not to study science or be scientists?!?!?!?!?! Jesus tells one of his disciples to tell the people to study the world and get to know it and know what makes it up better. So as to understand the lessons that he is teaching better. Then goes on to talk about how everything we go through in life is a metaphor for his teaching so it doesn’t matter if we loose or step back once twice or a hundred times, even if he is gone these things are still true! Meaning we have the ability to figure things out without The Bible, but that science needs to be used a comparative tool to the spiritual so as to understand them both better!
If that’s not Jesus promoting science I don’t know what it would be saying?!?!?
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 7:05 am
My “personal” beliefs come from a lifetime of study, much it with the finest minds in Scripture study today. You are telling tales created by creationists. Many might not recognize it, but I do. I have two degrees in theology and one in Scripture. I also read real science as much as possible. You, my friend, are clueless.
June 5, 2010 at 7:08 am
JakeM,
As long as you figured that out for yourself and you didn’t hear it from someone else. Cuz if you didn’t God condemns those who don’t figure out his scriptures without the influence of the scriptures or the people of your “church”.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 7:10 am
Hi Abby,
Hence you and Davey are both right!
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 7:12 am
Hey Michael Haase,
The Bible has no myth in it someone who doesn’t know the cultural realities and connotations of the time WOULD think so, but that is just simply not the case…….. but yes Davey Wavey is absolutely right.
June 5, 2010 at 7:18 am
You don’t have a clue. You not only don’t know much about the Bible, but you don’t even know what some of the words mean that you use. The “immaculate conception” is not about the conception of Jesus but the conception of Mary.
Aside from that there were lots of stories about women being impregnated by gods who came to them in various forms – often a snake – like Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great – and there are many ohters. These are myths – exactly like the birth stories about Jesus.
Where did you get the idea that the Egyptian pharoah, Akennaten had anything to do with anything in Hebrew Scripture (OT). “Christianity in the Old Testament…” makes it clear that you are either channeling someone (in which case you are psychotic).
Actually what you are writing is so crazy that I suspect you are using a computer in the rec room of a mental institution.
June 5, 2010 at 7:24 am
Everyone – this Kenneth R. Livingston is a loony. The nonsense that he is spewing out is pure fantasy. Very few scholars think that Paul wrote the letters to the Thessalonians and the fantasy that “homosexuality was practiced by almost all Thessalonians…” is pure, unadulterated nonsense as is nearly everything this nutter, Livingston, writes.
June 5, 2010 at 7:31 am
Hey Everyone,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJJmS-HY234&playnext_from=TL&videos=U2BIaIs1tOM&feature=grec_browse
If you can get it let it be somewhat truth however mythical it may seem and somewhat metaphorical.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 5, 2010 at 10:13 am
To Kenneth R Livingston
I am not going to comment on all the give and take in which you have been involved regarding the Bible.
You have accurately pointed out that the Bible was written within various cultural situations. Today it is understood or “interpreted” in our cultural setting. You also imply that the Bible is a set of individual books written in different literary forms.
What you call “stories” (which is very acceptable), I might call “myths” in the sense now used by scripture scholars: an account that makes a point even though it may not have “really” happened historically. For example, the Immaculate Conception both in the New Testament and “Church doctrine,” says more about the belief that Jesus was also divine and not Mary or the physical/biological circumstances of his birth.
I applaud your attempt to use principles like these and history to highlight the meaning of the Bible. I must say I disagree with many of your “interpretations.” I must also be reading some different history books or reading them differently. But it’s all good. Intelligent, informed dialogue will help us get beyond truths in the search for Truth.
Finally, you help counteract the “Naive Realism” of fundamentalists and what they claim for the “inerrant literal” Bible.
June 6, 2010 at 5:59 pm
Uhh…actually, you don’t know what I mean or what I’m talking about, so stop saying “I know,” ’cause I have no clue why you replied what you replied.
Also, did you really get all the degree and stuff you talked about in your other comment? Your run-on sentences is really giving me headaches… sorry, just gotta put it out there because I can hardly understand most of your comments. Talking like you’re some kind of wise man, yet you can’t even form your sentences right…
Anyway, I was talking about, since the so-called “open-minded non-believers (I consider myself one)” don’t like conservative Christians preaching, maybe we should stop shoving our point of view into them.
June 6, 2010 at 6:00 pm
Yeah…but appearently Christians get offended when non-believers share their ideas (and vise-versa).
June 6, 2010 at 7:32 pm
Poor, Poor Leland.. so afraid to go into the forbidden zone.. so fearful of discovering that the magnificence of Creation may actually have been created by a.. Creator, rather than a random, design-less, unintended accidental, freak occurrence.. Leland’s fear is so deeply ingrained that he allows it to manifest itself as pure gratuitous, rude and intolerant attacks on anyone not willing to toe the line of Leland’s faith based belief in uh.. Nothing..
For those unfamiliar with the sad and hateful postings of his on this topic.. you may find it enlightening to say the least.. and entertaining.. and a bit scary to see what happens to a person after decades of willfully denying the obvious.. and being uninspired by the things that should inspire.. His rants of hate are easily triggered when facts are presented that destroy his arguments or his justification for attacks upon Christianity.
Start at the biggining.. He starts out White Hot.. bitterly, rudely displaying a level of rude intolerance normally reserved only for the extremist fundamentalist he claims to dispise.. Yea I know.. how can anyone point that out to the radical fundamentalist that the blood flying out of his eyes.. is unbecoming? All we can do is observe and in some cases.. play with. Because really, he is sooooo easy to tweak.. I guess I must have a tad bit of a mean streak myself, because I simply enjoy the poetic justice of rubbing the nose of a bully.. of the intolerant.. of the mean spirited hate mongers, in the truth they distort and ignore.. Just knowing that he is beyond seeing his own folly or the contradictions he has immersed himself in.. makes it enjoyable especially as long as his rude and intolerant attacks continue.
For Leland, anyone that would dare to venture, question or believe that there may be something out there.. greater than the mind of man could comprehend.. is to venture into a place known only to Leland as the forbidden zone… Oh how terrible it is, that to him.. simply asking the question of “how did we get here”? or if we aren’t some dumb accident of the universe.. then, “How, what, why and who created the universe? Is (Ironically) a sin to Leland?
As I have clearly demonstrated thru this long string of postings that those that live in inside an imprisoned mind of fear.. like Leland.. ANY evidence of creative design MUST NOT take root in the mind of man.. Leland personally would love to do all within his power to diminish the idea of a Creator.. He rudely insults, lies, and spews his hatred toward any and all that dare to question or even look into why and where we came from.. For those not familiar with Leland.. anything other than an accidental cause for the universe is nothing more than folklore or fairy tales.. believed in and contemplated only by fools or the mentally challenged.. For Leland, no explaination is required and only fools would go down that road. It is after all the forbidden zone.. a place where knowlege, discovery or questions could lead to conclusions other than Happen Stance or Dumb Luck.. and therefore need to be prohibited.. from places like schools or the public square.. Leland is on a mission from God.. (sort of. Ha.Ha.).. to prevent any persons or groups of persons from venturing there.. and if they do, at a minimum.. be-little and minimize any for daring to question HIS accidental faith based belief in things such as “The spark of Life”. To discover otherwise, is to believe in fairy tales or what he so easily calls a “murderous” God.. of course he fails to see the humor in his sympathetic stance with the murderous athiestic leaders.. which are his ideological soul mates.. Stalin, Mao, Castro.. etc. Yep. In the meantime he is hell bent on stomping out the memory and the motives of the likes of Mother Teresa or that dangerous Sunday School crowd.. especially the ones out in the public square singing Christmas Carols.. or wishing him a “Merry Christmas” at Macy’s.. The bastards.
Poor Leland is so terrified to discover there may be something out there greater than he.. that it drives him insane.. it makes him hate with abandon.. he casually makes up lies entirely out of whole cloth about the history the world, (the Catholic Church for example).. condemns those who would dare to look beyond his faith based belief in Nothing.. demanding that WE accept and worship at his Happen-Stance Church of NOTHING.. forcing it down our throats.. Leland’s fear of the discovery of the possibility that simply searching for evidence of an inspired Creator could result in a logical conclusion or even proof of such, (complete with evidence).. is so strong that it grips his mind and imprisons it, very much like the barbed wires that imprison people in places like North Korea, Mao’s China, Castro’s Cuba, or the killing fields of Cambodia.. ALL ATHIEST STATES.. the likes of which he proposes for us to mimic.. YET, I’m pretty sure Leland would most likely never choose to live within or under.. To Leland the great murderers of man are those that believe in a God.. ignoring as much as possible vast amounts of inconvenient facts.. facts that demonstrate the bloodiest century in the history of the world.. the 20th Century.. far, far, far more people were murdered by the officially proclaimed Athiestic governments.. from Stalin to Hitler to Mao.. than from the faith based countries.. He even attempts to color Hitler and his National Socialist Workers Party.. the NAZI’s as the true representatives of Christianity for God’s sake.. a febble argument thoroughly put to rest for those interested in checking it out.. and once done.. puts Leland and his philosopical nightmare.. back in their place.
Note to Leland: I really miss the fun of tearing your feeble arguments to smithereens.. reading back.. over some of this.. I just had to smile..HELL yea let’s crank it up again Leland.. I have faith that you have made no progress on being able to engage your brain.. beyond fear and hate. Your FAITH BASED belief that there is NO God.. that there is Nothing greater than you.. and that only Nothing can account for the wonders of the world.. allowing me to once again.. re-establish the clear fact of your idiocy.. of your mean spirited stance against those that dare to believe in something.. as you promote your faith.. your belief in Nothing.. Bring it on Leland.. I miss our chats.. I truly do miss the opportunity to show once again that those that believe in nothing.. will always believe in anything… such as Man Made Global Warming.
Oh yes, I’m ready for that one also.
June 6, 2010 at 8:01 pm
Quit talking like you’re some kind of smart-ass saint.
The sarcasm ain’t funny and it’s clearly hateful; it ain’t gonna let you go nowhere.
I just think you both should stop now.
You believe in God, good for you.
He doesn’t, good for him.
I don’t either, but I think this is pointless.
If there really is a God, and most of his believers are hate-filled, then I rather keep him out of my believe system.
June 6, 2010 at 8:52 pm
Sorry buddy but speaking as a smart ass fully aware of the fact that I am not a saint.. nor ever claimed to be.. I could not help but notice that while you may pretend to be saintly and above it all.. because you are not hate filled.. Yet in the same sentence echo Leland’s claim that believers ARE hate filled..
What you and Leland Hate.. is when someone is not cowered by your bullying ways and dares to get right back in your face. That is what you hate.. and that is what I for one, will continue to do.. Not for any other reason than the poetic justice and pure enjoyment of watching the likes of you and Leland whimper and cry “woe is me”..