It’s easy to confuse the finger that points to the moon with the moon.
Similarly, it’s easy to think that Bible is truth. It’s not. Just as the finger points at the moon, the Bible points at truth. The Bible is not truth in and of itself, it’s just a (sometimes) useful road map to arrive at something greater.
In the car yesterday, I saw a billboard that proclaimed: “Jesus is the only way.” My judgmental self cringed at the thought of a church or individual hawking such a divisive message. But that is their path, and I will not contribute to the divisiveness through further ranting.
In my experience, Jesus is one of many ways.
My very limited understanding of things greater than myself have come from Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, spirituality, life, so-called mistakes and problems, suffering, pain, love, family, friends, relationships, youtube, trees, flowers, food and my dog. Just to name a few. All of these are my teachers.
There is no one book or creed or person that has all of the answers to the questions that I ask. But when I take a little from here and little from there, I begin to construct a tapestry of perspectives that resonates with my experience on this planet.
June 6, 2010 at 10:35 pm
Mr. Livingstone is a crank. As one person pointed out more than half of the sentences he writes are gibberish. It may be that English is not his first language – which would account for the incoherent phrasing etc.
But when he conflates material from Egyptian mythologies and Hebrew mythologies and then treats them as if there were factual and even in mythological time, occuring at the same time – WOW.
Unfortunately some people might attribute credibility to his ravings because many people have only the foggiest notion about ancient history and many think that the myths of Hebrew Scripture are history rather than mythologies designed to assist and legitimize tribal affiliation – both in the past and in the present.
June 6, 2010 at 10:57 pm
While I’m at it I think I’ll spread a little good news – that is the triumph of reason over superstition. Here’s a place to check for reason: http://www.skeptic.com/
June 6, 2010 at 10:59 pm
And for a little more enlightnment – a way to light a candle of reason in the sea of superstition: http://www.atheists.org/
June 6, 2010 at 11:07 pm
Hey guys, all of you seem to be getting awful personal. Agrumentum ad hominem never sheds light on issues. It only drives wedges between people. I have ten years of theological education so I do understand the kinds of issues.
Yes, I did speak to Ken Livingston’s ideas earlier. As I said there I appreciated the fact that he raised methodological issues related to modern biblical scholarship as a counterpoint to fundamentalist literalism.
I also said I had some difficulties with some of his history and interpretation.
But I would never call him down personally as I do not wish to call you guys down. Open, honest dialogue and listening to others, is one of the best ways to search for or articulate what we understand of truths and Truth. The best to all of you guys.
June 9, 2010 at 3:06 am
What kind of argument are you making? So what if Jesus existed? That doesn’t mean God also exists; anybody with CIP (which prevents physical pain) and a strong believe can pull off what Jesus has done, he proves nothing, maybe a great story of a MAN, but that’s it.
June 9, 2010 at 3:46 am
Ha, the “poetic” justice. They taught you that in Christian school? Very cute.
Of course you’re not a saint, otherwise who’d want to be a Christian?
I don’t hate “when someone is not cowered by bullying ways and dares to get right back”; I hate when someone claims to be the follower of the so-called God, yet act against it in every way: the same mistake many other followers made in the past centuries.
If your so-called supreme God of the universe is so almighty and loving, and you really want to be a Christian (or any other similar group), then act like one, and don’t do anything hateful in “His justice” or “His law.”
On the other hand, if you’re going to make that kind of mistakes — for example, calling people names, telling them to go to hell, or simply kill them (in your head, like the Ten Amendment suggested) — and still use the Bible to back you up, of course people are going to think God is contradictory, hateful, or don’t even exist!
I’m not a full Atheist; I really can less about God’s existance, but I think the Bible (and the books for Jews, Muslims, etc.) are full of crap.
June 9, 2010 at 4:24 am
I don’t think Livingston is speaking gibberish; he actually sounds more educated (or at least calmer) than Jack and Leland.
He just has his belief system settled and is not willing to change; just like the most of us.
(Not that I’m being contradictory to what I said before, it’s just when I asked “Why do I see so many people trying to shove their ‘openmindedness’ into those conservative Christian heads,” Livingston added a lot of unrelated/irrelevant stuff into his reply, and still talked as if he knows everything.)
Anyway, even though I’m more on Leland’s side (belief wise), I still think Leland should back off a little, or at least be calmer.
Like the question I asked before, Isn’t shoving the so-called “openmindedness” into a religious person contradicts the idea of being openminded?
June 9, 2010 at 6:46 am
Here’s another website that helps spread the light of reason and science into a world still steeped in superstition and the darkness of religious faith:
http://www.project-reason.org/
Light a candle of reason to dispell the darkness of superstition and religious faith.
June 11, 2010 at 11:26 pm
Like you said yourself Leland you believe in science and what you think science is just proves your ability to make connections that come easily for others!
Thank You for proving my point.
And you know what Mr. Professor, I am posting on a blog not writing an essay to be marked I guarantee you with the fact that I was drilled in grammar from Grade 1 to still continuing if I was writing an essay to be MARKED and you too were also doing such your grammar when it was handed in would look like giberish in comparison to the one I would hand in. I have won prizes in almost every grade in junior and high school for my examples of grammar in essays handed in to teachers. Like I said I’m posting on a blog and I do write when I’m pissed a lot too, not writing an essay that I plan to hand in and get a mark for. I come from a family of teachers both of religion and education, if I didn’t have A+ from the time I entered school I would end up with whippings as well I’ve done more intellectual testing than you can imagine being done, I haven’t told anyone this I like to keep my genetics to myself unless I plan to marry someone…. but if you want to go there tested against the global population that has been tested I am smarter than 93% of the world population. I was forced to be tested from the first year that I entered school, then you want to go into psychological testing in 2007 I had 4 months of psychological testing and the tests and analysis came to the conclusion that I am more psychologically advanced than like 87% of the human population. You piss me off for making me sound like I’m bragging. I also in most cases am an abstract thinker which allows me the ability to take events that have occured randomly and find connections that the majority of people would not even be able to come close to making. What you are saying about the bible and Christianity on this blog is the basic curriculum of religious and theological university and college study, which exemplifies my point that it is inaccurate. No matter what grade level college or previous or doctorate the only point of your curriculum is not to teach you things AT ALL, the point of the curriculum is to touch on subjects and topics in the hopes of making a light turn on in the journey of learning you hopefully want to take, it’s not some comprehensive study of anything in any subject. You or anyone must do their own research on what ever inspirations or passions arose from the preliminary basic info covered in the curriculum not to be the accurate knowledge of what happened even or even the complete coverage of any topic. The education system is not about teaching it’s about inspiring in people a passion to learn not to think that they got a degree so they know what they are talking about. Oh one more thing I graduated high school when I was 15.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 11, 2010 at 11:28 pm
Oh and if you want some documentation to prove those percentages I could make a call and pick it up or have them e-mail of fax the info to me. I wouldn’t blame you for asking with all the liars out there these days. And all the false info being passed about
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 11, 2010 at 11:37 pm
My father is as obsessed and passionate about history as I am, when I was in the early years of grade school my father would come home with course material and documentaries that he had covered in his grade 12 social studies class, that’s what they called it then, and he would sit and cover either the video or material with my brother and I until late and then test us on what we had learned, encouraging us find things in it that we found personally interesting and then to go and look into those topics that made a light turn on when they were being discussed or covered. In my life time throughout pre-secondary school I did 50 times the study outside of school than I did while I was spending my school day. That’s what learning is about coming across things that inspire us and taking them as far as we can and not to stop looking for those things that make that passion stronger.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 12, 2010 at 12:06 am
And you know what not just with writing but with life as well I’ve practiced for a long time to be messy it’s not very easy for a person to get comfortable with making a mess when you’re raised to be about as OCD as possible, it is an art to be messy if you saw me on this blog 10 years ago yah it probably would have been one of those award winning grammar posts. I do not want you to undermine my intellect again when I am basing my info on actual study of both archaelogical as well as written histories as well as the cultural societal and religious realities of the time. Taking into account linguistic differentiations within different languages, regions and dialects. That last statement probably is the most influential in finding the truth of the scriptures in reference to the real world reality. You must look in detail at the scriptures as they are in the bible because both latin and english did not have all the necessary words to translate from ancient hebrew yes we all know this bla bla bla. But to get the actual meanings you have to understand what latin and english words came to closest to the real meaning of the word it replaces and then look through to understand whether they used a word in english or latin that roughly replaced the ancient hebrew word and then a person also has to through the context and manner of the linguistics in context as well to the scripture surrounding it where they improvised on what was being said because in latin and english to directly translate the word or phrase would not make sense or the concept didn’t even exist in these other cultures. It’s not simple for a methodical thinker like you to take up such a task, I don’t find it hard but I also study for hundreds of hours every month while still being able to be messy without having to think about doing it. I figured out you can make as much mess as you want if before bed you clean the house! You can also be as lazy as you want as long as you consistently get up off your butt and work really hard at making progress to completion on one task or another.
June 12, 2010 at 12:12 am
You also have to keep in mind that the translated bible uses some words over and over to emphasize, for example: love, God, lord, angel, King, as well as other words that are less important but also are used as the english or latin translation of sometimes hundreds of words that are different from one another in ancient hebrew
June 12, 2010 at 12:14 am
just so you know the Mr. Professor comment was with no doubt in my mind not directed at you.
Ken
June 12, 2010 at 12:19 am
How about taking this discussion to private email? You two are in a cat fight over religion and the yowling is getting annoying.
June 12, 2010 at 12:22 am
Thanks Cal,
Oh my, I read yours just after my ranting, sometimes I wish we could delete responses we write. I get so passionate sometimes. All I really wanted to tell him is that a degree is not what makes a person educated or smart, it’s what they do with it inside and out with the passion the basic generalized info in the curriculum causes them to feel where it makes the light shine in them. Hopefully creating like a mustard seed; I know a biblical reference, an inspiration and passion and light inside that goes outward and allows a person to challenge their own limits of what the believe what they can comprehend and what they can discover.
Thanks for making me humble in my head whether any one else sees it or not thank you.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 12, 2010 at 12:23 am
Science is a religious faith one that is endorsed in the bible by Jesus.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 12, 2010 at 1:10 am
Look at the progression of Grade 12 Canadian History in the Canadian curriculum over the last 30 years. If you think methodically as you do it should be easy to make the point I am making. And about how truth is not found in school or education or a degree it’s about being able to get down and dirty irrelevant of what you learnt in school irrelevant of what the popular stigma, opinion or belief of the present, irrelevant of the lies you say those evangelical preachers tell their congregations and to then actually look at the facts and the actual info. You’re school or university isn’t going to tell you the truth, they’re going to try and inspire YOU to find it. There are lies we have been believing for hundreds sometime thousands of years because at one time or another to change the history to benefit this movement or that or this law or that worked for them. BUT the thing is you can’t erase history, through careful sifting and studying the influence of all the areas surrounding a history looking at the histories that aren’t respected as well as histories that are shared by all sides of a story artifacts and archaelogical digs present stigmas we currently hold to a region or peoples then putting as much info into a single conclusion. We will never find the complete truth of everything except maybe about the love two people can find and most don’t ever really get to know that…. sorry off topic, But the thing is we can’t bias ourselves by our conditioning our upbringing, our education or degree, not by our friends collegues or professors. Not by our family not by our judgements not by our objectivity, not by our emotions gut feelings or intellect. The thing is we all deal with these things and we believe what we believe, but to know the truth is to know honesty above and beyond all of this. This is not directed at anyone on this blog.
Kenneth R. Livingston
June 12, 2010 at 1:21 am
Sorry Leland,
You proved your point when you said “very few ‘scholars’”, and the second part is false, but irrelevant of it being false it’s also and opinion. Sorry I just had to point out to you the reason people become respected scholars is almost unconditionally and always because they promote the “supposed” truthful and comprehensive study of what the popular mainstream belief of the time is or are encouraged by certain others to promote a certain something within the higher and lower parts of contemporary society.
That’s the problem with being a scholar it gives a person power and being considered someone who has power over another or seeing others as having power over us is the bane of human truth
June 12, 2010 at 1:38 am
Sorry,
but….. my point is I could take a theology text and if I didn’t worry about copy right I would be saying what you are saying word for word. the whole point of studying religion is the search for truth not the search for what it says in the text book, you won’t find anything there. I’m gonna take the time and the work to get down to the truth not just tell people what my collegue or text book or professor told me I’m gonna take my info from all credible artifacts and cultural realities specified in the timeline of whatever I’m studying you have to take into account wars and migration character references and psychological profiles of scholars and disciples… I could go on and on I’m saying you won’t find the truth of Christianity or even the study of theology by reading a text book talking or listening to a professor or taking a class or getting a degree, that’s just there to make you start thinking about it….. when it comes down to it that’s not IT, it’s everywhere in every form of study not just religious or theological if that’s all a person takes it’s like looking at the sun with a thick blanket over your head or blinders on you don’t see the light it makes.
June 12, 2010 at 1:41 am
Oh at one time we did study the science of the non-physical those were the shamans often doctors religious leaders, prophets. We just have better technology to do it now
June 12, 2010 at 1:45 am
That’s the point the “so-called” “finest minds in Scripture study today.” please stop being a follower and discover something don’t just read something and believe it to be true. It’s kinda like we teach kids about media these days, decide for yourself don’t be a victim of propaganda or what media is telling you is true find out for yourself. Sometimes it’s as subtle as the fact that the majority of celebrity women and advertisements on tv and other media have women who are stick thin. They don’t even say anything it’s just everywhere you look.
My Point!
June 12, 2010 at 5:53 am
Here’s another little to cast some light in the darkness of religion and superstition:
http://www.skeptic.com/
Be well and cast off the darkness of ignorance with facts and the scientific method.
June 12, 2010 at 6:28 pm
I’m a non-believer too, but I really don’t see the point of posting websites and attacking religions if they didn’t come and bark at you… (for example, saying “faggots will go to hell,” which I still see a lot on news comments related to homosexuality in Yahoo and other websites.)
June 12, 2010 at 7:24 pm
Yeah, I know all you really wanted to tell him was that, but based on your intelligence, I was supprised it took you so much (even two of my full screen couldn’t handle) to get the point across (Haha). But as a friendly reminder, even though I understand the whole “I’m not writing an essay” concept, it’s still hard to read your posts sometimes because you’d get really wordy and hardly ever use comma.
You’re welcome by the way
June 13, 2010 at 7:53 am
Enlightnment, Cal, enlightnment!!! There is a unending need for enlightnment. That cannot happen when people are always surroundedd by ignorance and religious inspired ignorance – even though it sounds profound when it is only profoundly stupid.
It is Sunday: Today’s invitation to enlightnment is here:
http://new.exchristian.net/